Are we all Trussed up...

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by Jdsk »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 3:40pm
Jdsk wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 3:06pm On the use of Alice I'm mixed. I'd rather that she wasn't associated in any way with this debacle. But I agree that we're deep into magical thinking.
The Conservative Party has been in Red Queen territory since the Brexit vote.
There's a breakfast pun available if needed...

; - )

Jonathan
jois
Posts: 334
Joined: 22 Sep 2022, 12:29pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by jois »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 3:37pm
jois wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 3:08pm
The international donkey charity, il post the correct details when I win
Blimey, what's an international donkey?
They traffic them accross borders, hence the charity
Stevek76
Posts: 2085
Joined: 28 Jul 2015, 11:23am

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by Stevek76 »

Sort of expect the conservatives to think there are no good options but it's a little disappointing to see more mainstream and supposedly impartial commentators take that line without adding the unsaid 'for the Tories' to the end. There are some options but they are largely the very antithesis of what the current conservative party and membership wants.

I.e. higher spend, on actually useful things that really do provide growth and productivity benefits (i.e. basic public services and infrastructure, not tax cuts and bungs to the rich) and higher and relatively redistributive taxes to go with that.

Somewhat ironically, when the trussanomics group are complaining about 'lefty markets' they're actually correct in a way, the markets are very aware that what is being proposed is far to the right of what would actually work in addition to the political obstacles to implementing them.
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by Jdsk »

Psamathe wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 12:55pm...

But also, Ms Truss was warned (in writing) yesterday about this by the Chief Executive of FullFact, so if she is still repeating misleading information (despite having been warned) then she is also at fault and needs to go public and apologise and correct her misleading information.

So I consider criticism of Ms Truss on this as quite right.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2022/sep/29/liz-truss-kwasi-kwarteng-mini-budget-sterling-crisis-economy-conservatives-uk-politics-live-updates?filterKeyEvents=false&page=with:block-6335588d8f086841b84c4460#block-6335588d8f086841b84c4460 wrote:The fact checking organisation Full Fact has criticised Truss for misleading voters. Will Moy, the organisation’s chief executive, said:

We wrote to the prime minister about getting this wrong only yesterday. The government’s energy plans will affect every household in Britain this winter. And yet Liz Truss has repeatedly misled listeners this morning.
She must now publicly correct her mistake to make sure people are not misled about their energy prices and hit with unexpected and unaffordable energy bills this winter.
FullFact today:

"Liz Truss wrong to repeatedly say energy bills are capped at £2,500":
https://fullfact.org/economy/liz-truss- ... -cap-2500/

Jonathan
roubaixtuesday
Posts: 5815
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by roubaixtuesday »

jois wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 3:48pm
roubaixtuesday wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 3:37pm
jois wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 3:08pm
The international donkey charity, il post the correct details when I win
Blimey, what's an international donkey?
They traffic them accross borders, hence the charity
I've learned something today.
Psamathe
Posts: 17650
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by Psamathe »

If Conservative MPs are worried about Truss now, wonder what will happen when fracking starts in their constituencies all bcause of Ms Truss.

Ian
PH
Posts: 13106
Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 12:31am
Location: Derby
Contact:

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by PH »

Jdsk wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 3:52pm FullFact today:

"Liz Truss wrong to repeatedly say energy bills are capped at £2,500":
https://fullfact.org/economy/liz-truss- ... -cap-2500/

Jonathan
Yes, she ought to have learnt from the reprimand about the CNN interview not to forget the word "typical". From all those interviews you quoted earlier it looked like she had. I don't know if it's omission is incompetence or dishonesty, neither is good in a PM.
I still think the whole idea that it's a cap is misleading. Saying the average bill will be subsidised by £xxx might have had the same appeal, though we'd still be disputing what average meant.
I'm sure the Tories would rather we argue these points, which they can later apologise for confusing. Than the other elements of the disastrous budget decisions.
roubaixtuesday
Posts: 5815
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Psamathe wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 4:01pm If Conservative MPs are worried about Truss now, wonder what will happen when fracking starts in their constituencies all bcause of Ms Truss.

Ian
Or when they learn pensions will be cut.

And the NHS cut.

And schools cut.

All of which are essential, in unprecedented ways, to balance the books.
jois
Posts: 334
Joined: 22 Sep 2022, 12:29pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by jois »

Psamathe wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 4:01pm If Conservative MPs are worried about Truss now, wonder what will happen when fracking starts in their constituencies all bcause of Ms Truss.

Ian
Are there any fracking sites n conservative areas.

The same people moaning about their gas bill are likely to join a campaign against fracking wind farms and really kick off if it's a nuclear plant..

I don't know where they think energy comes from
Bonefishblues
Posts: 11010
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by Bonefishblues »

jois wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 4:10pm
Psamathe wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 4:01pm If Conservative MPs are worried about Truss now, wonder what will happen when fracking starts in their constituencies all bcause of Ms Truss.

Ian
Are there any fracking sites n conservative areas.

The same people moaning about their gas bill are likely to join a campaign against fracking wind farms and really kick off if it's a nuclear plant..

I don't know where they think energy comes from
Is the answer Russia?
Psamathe
Posts: 17650
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by Psamathe »

jois wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 4:10pm
Psamathe wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 4:01pm If Conservative MPs are worried about Truss now, wonder what will happen when fracking starts in their constituencies all bcause of Ms Truss.

Ian
Are there any fracking sites n conservative areas.
...
Quite a lot
https://www.newstatesman.com/environment/climate/2022/09/mapped-uk-fracking-licences-tory-constituencies wrote:Mapped: UK fracking licences could impact one in four Tory constituencies
or
https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/fracking-ban-lifted-liz-truss-b2172783.html wrote:Some 143 constituencies, including so-called “red wall” areas in northern England and the Midlands, have licences which could potentially allow firms to examine gas or oil exploitation. Recent analysis shows that there are licences for onshore hydrocarbon production in 94 Tory-held seats.
Ian
Psamathe
Posts: 17650
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by Psamathe »

jois wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 4:10pm
Psamathe wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 4:01pm If Conservative MPs are worried about Truss now, wonder what will happen when fracking starts in their constituencies all bcause of Ms Truss.

Ian
...
The same people moaning about their gas bill are likely to join a campaign against fracking wind farms and really kick off if it's a nuclear plant..
...
Increasing domestic gas production will not lower the price of gas. Gas prices are set internationally and does anybody believe the fracking companies are going to sell their gas to UK much cheaper than they could internationally because it's extracted from the UK?

If we want cheap energy and energy security then we are better off investing in renewables.

Ian
jois
Posts: 334
Joined: 22 Sep 2022, 12:29pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by jois »

Psamathe wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 4:26pm
jois wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 4:10pm
Psamathe wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 4:01pm If Conservative MPs are worried about Truss now, wonder what will happen when fracking starts in their constituencies all bcause of Ms Truss.

Ian
...
The same people moaning about their gas bill are likely to join a campaign against fracking wind farms and really kick off if it's a nuclear plant..
...
Increasing domestic gas production will not lower the price of gas. Gas prices are set internationally and does anybody believe the fracking companies are going to sell their gas to UK much cheaper than they could internationally because it's extracted from the UK?

If we want cheap energy and energy security then we are better off investing in renewables.

Ian
They tend to have an issue with the dark and a lack of wind and more of an issue that many people believe them unsightly, on shore wind farms are I think baned, miles and miles of solar panels don't look great either. I'm sure their are objectors to off shore farms as well. Nuclear get most people hot and bothered

What ever the actual answer is both to energy security and price which are slightly different issues a large contingent will object, probably much the same contingent will complain about all of them in either general terms or NIMBY terms.

We are sat on a island of coal with it seems substantial gas reserved in the rock and more as yet untapped in the North sea, it seems some what ungreatful to the god of tectonic plates not to use some of it

NB oil is a renewable energy source, just saying
Psamathe
Posts: 17650
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by Psamathe »

jois wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 4:50pm
Psamathe wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 4:26pm
jois wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 4:10pm
...
The same people moaning about their gas bill are likely to join a campaign against fracking wind farms and really kick off if it's a nuclear plant..
...
Increasing domestic gas production will not lower the price of gas. Gas prices are set internationally and does anybody believe the fracking companies are going to sell their gas to UK much cheaper than they could internationally because it's extracted from the UK?

If we want cheap energy and energy security then we are better off investing in renewables.

Ian
They tend to have an issue with the dark and a lack of wind and more of an issue that many people believe them unsightly, on shore wind farms are I think baned, miles and miles of solar panels don't look great either. I'm sure their are objectors to off shore farms as well. Nuclear get most people hot and bothered

What ever the actual answer is both to energy security and price which are slightly different issues a large contingent will object, probably much the same contingent will complain about all of them in either general terms or NIMBY terms.

We are sat on a island of coal with it seems substantial gas reserved in the rock and more as yet untapped in the North sea, it seems some what ungreatful to the god of tectonic plates not to use some of it

NB oil is a renewable energy source, just saying
You have listed a narrow range. Arguments like wind power when the wind isn't blowing or solar power at night are historic - storage. And as you say, we are an island and thus we have a lot of coastline and we also have good reliable tides that flow at different times at different bits of the coast. Tidal power does not obscure views or anything so difficult to see why you'd get a large contingent objecting.

You suggest burning hydrocarbons because we have plenty/ Maybe you haven't heard but that is destroying the climate planet wide with devastating impacts (including on the UK) so to continue such practices when we have non-polluting alternatives is just beyond daft.

Ian
Biospace
Posts: 2008
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by Biospace »

Psamathe wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 4:26pm
jois wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 4:10pm ...
The same people moaning about their gas bill are likely to join a campaign against fracking wind farms and really kick off if it's a nuclear plant..
...
Increasing domestic gas production will not lower the price of gas. Gas prices are set internationally and does anybody believe the fracking companies are going to sell their gas to UK much cheaper than they could internationally because it's extracted from the UK?

If we want cheap energy and energy security then we are better off investing in renewables.

Ian

It appears a large reason that wind and solar is being 'invested in' is because prices are cheap. And instead of investing in tidal and wave power, which is as yet not in large scale operation (because the money goes to prop up French nuclear, the storage of high level nuclear waste and clearing up the mess of decommissioned nuclear as well as giving the oil corporations a few billion to keep them happy) and so will be argued has not proved itself to work on a large scale :roll: , the money will go further down the nuclear hole.

Which conveniently ignores a few facts, like the reactor design for our new power plants is thought to be 'unbuildable' and the French themselves have been struggling with this European design. Flamanville will never be able to run as designed, because of a weakened steel structure and is many, many years delayed. Together with the vast cost of running their nuclear stations, this helped make EDF go bust, on paper, hence the re-nationalisation.

But these facts are conveniently ignored, or if pressed, the official line is to start talking about the small, modular reactors and huge investments into Rolls-Royce. Add at least ten years before those oversize shipping containers start appearing at the side of the ring road.

Whichever way, we're going to run short of energy, pay through the nose, and temporarily mine more fossil fuels.
Last edited by Biospace on 29 Sep 2022, 9:08pm, edited 1 time in total.
Post Reply