Are we all Trussed up...

[Stevek76]

Why was the 2016 referendum "truly democratic" but not the UK-wide 1975 referendum

Something about it just being a free trade area and not a political project blah blah

(Obviously this is actually false and the official leaflets from the time are perfectly clear about the political nature of the then EEC)


In other news it appears the £ just dropped a penny against the US dollar in response to kwarteng's 'reassuring' statement.

[jois]

It was down to two with the restriction that voting was open across the United Kingdom... why was it "truly democratic" when those weren't?

Two is still a list and I still invite you to pick one otherwise youl just bounce the other one at me

Why was the 2016 referendum "truly democratic" but not the UK-wide 1975 referendum or the UK-wide 2011 referendum?

Thanks

Jonathan

Ok both

The 1975 referendum is out side my statement of ABOUT 50 years

but since it's on the table the question was rigged to ,do you want to remain in the EEC ? That it was ever likely to be a political Union was strongly denied , though the intent ever since it was the European coal and iron community

. If they had truthfully asked do you want to be part of the political Union, I suspect the answer would have been no. But we never got the chance,


The 2011 referendum arose out of a reckless promise to have a refendum on electoral reform in order to get the libs on side

The resultant decision to go for the alternative vote system carried a near certainty it would be defeated as no one liked it, even nick who was its main cheerleader wasn't a fan

Was it democratic ? certainly, was it truly democratic to pick the only alternative worse than the one we have. I don't think so

[jois]

Why was the 2016 referendum "truly democratic" but not the UK-wide 1975 referendum

Something about it just being a free trade area and not a political project blah blah

(Obviously this is actually false and the official leaflets from the time are perfectly clear about the political nature of the then EEC)


In other news it appears the £ just dropped a penny against the US dollar in response to kwarteng's 'reassuring' statement.

I'd love to see one such clear stament and it certainly wasn't on the ballet paper. I don't think such a point should have been in the small print if it was there at all

[Jdsk]

The 1975 referendum is out side my statement of ABOUT 50 years

No it isn't. 1975 is 47 years ago.

Jonathan

[jois]

The 1975 referendum is out side my statement of ABOUT 50 years

No it isn't. 1975 is 47 years ago.

Jonathan

I couldnt be bother calculating ,so I said ABOUT 50 years.

Are you contesting 47 is about 50 ?

[Cugel]

The 1975 referendum is out side my statement of ABOUT 50 years

No it isn't. 1975 is 47 years ago.

Jonathan

Angels, pins.

Are any of your nitpickers interested in the big picture or is it all to be a squabble about who said what and who should have said what?

Cugel

[Jdsk]

The 1975 referendum is out side my statement of ABOUT 50 years

No it isn't. 1975 is 47 years ago.

I couldnt be bother calculating ,so I said ABOUT 50 years.

Are you contesting 47 is about 50 ?

No... if it's ABOUT 50 then it's INSIDE your described window not OUTSIDE it.

Jonathan

[roubaixtuesday]

It appears that True Democracy is in the eye of the beholder.

There is more than a hint that democracy is only True when the result accords with the wishes of the person defining Truth.

Who would have thought.

[Jdsk]

Two is still a list and I still invite you to pick one otherwise youl just bounce the other one at me

Why was the 2016 referendum "truly democratic" but not the UK-wide 1975 referendum or the UK-wide 2011 referendum?

Ok both

The 1975 referendum is out side my statement of ABOUT 50 years

but since it's on the table the question was rigged to ,do you want to remain in the EEC ? That it was ever likely to be a political Union was strongly denied , though the intent ever since it was the European coal and iron community

. If they had truthfully asked do you want to be part of the political Union, I suspect the answer would have been no. But we never got the chance,

Thanks

Exactly the same criticism can be made of the 2016 referendum... that things were going to happen that weren't on the ballot paper.

And they have.

Jonathan

PS: We're six years on and the EU is no closer than it was to being a political union or superstate.

[jois]

No it isn't. 1975 is 47 years ago.

I couldnt be bother calculating ,so I said ABOUT 50 years.

Are you contesting 47 is about 50 ?

No... if it's ABOUT 50 then it's INSIDE your described window not OUTSIDE it.

Jonathan

No your not contesting ? Or no you are ?

About 50 is vague enough that I can have my window more or less any time in the 70 and still be about .

But anyway I included it so it seems a academic point

[Jdsk]

It appears that True Democracy is in the eye of the beholder.

There is more than a hint that democracy is only True when the result accords with the wishes of the person defining Truth.

Who would have thought.

Of course there are many components of democracy, and that Democracy Index upthread has a good range.

In this sort of context I'd use it to describe processes and systems rather than outcomes that I like or don't like.

Jonathan

[roubaixtuesday]

Anyone who wishes to consider what True Democracy is need look no further than Russia.

Russia has a democratic constitution, and acpresident who, it's generally accepted, has, at least until very recently, had popular support.

So, we should regard Russia as a True Democracy?

Of course not.

Because True Democracy depends on the integrity and behaviour of people within the system - the culture of the nation - as well as the written rules.

Anyone complacent about how True our Democracy is could reflect on what the winners of the One Truly Democratic Event have done to that culture in the UK. They might also reflect on the run up to the One True Event.

[Jdsk]

Does anyone have any thoughts on how Truss is doing?

Thanks

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

Anyone who wishes to consider what True Democracy is need look no further than Russia.

Russia has a democratic constitution, and acpresident who, it's generally accepted, has, at least until very recently, had popular support.

So, we should regard Russia as a True Democracy?

Of course not.

Because True Democracy depends on the integrity and behaviour of people within the system - the culture of the nation - as well as the written rules.

Anyone complacent about how True our Democracy is could reflect on what the winners of the One Truly Democratic Event have done to that culture in the UK. They might also reflect on the run up to the One True Event.

Russia is now the textbook example of there being a lot more to democracy than being allowed to vote occasionally.

Jonathan

[jois]

Why was the 2016 referendum "truly democratic" but not the UK-wide 1975 referendum or the UK-wide 2011 referendum?

Ok both

The 1975 referendum is out side my statement of ABOUT 50 years

but since it's on the table the question was rigged to ,do you want to remain in the EEC ? That it was ever likely to be a political Union was strongly denied , though the intent ever since it was the European coal and iron community

. If they had truthfully asked do you want to be part of the political Union, I suspect the answer would have been no. But we never got the chance,

Thanks

Exactly the same criticism can be made of the 2016 referendum... that things were going to happen that weren't on the ballot paper.

And they have.

Jonathan

PS: We're six years on and the EU is no closer than it was to being a political union or superstate.

It has to be a question that fits on the ballet paper and gives equal chance to both sides

You can't ask do you want stay or leave and die a slow death through cold and starvation. That's a might biased

Stay or go from the European Union is both a fair description of the political nature of the Union and the choice in hand. I feel