Are we all Trussed up...

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Cugel
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Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by Cugel »

pete75 wrote: 7 Dec 2022, 10:38pm
Who's arguing about the meaning of an adjective? The founding of the NHS is, without a doubt, the most radical health policy enacted by any UK government ever. The complete shake up of secondary education at the time was radical. The nationalisation of the railways was too. The introduction of a comprehensive planning system in the 1947 act similarly radical.

It's not radical policies that have caused problems, rather the watering down of the radical policies put into practice by the first Atlee government that's causing problems for a lot of folk today.

What you describe as a radical policy, tax cuts for the wealthy and the poor becoming poorer isn't. It's just Tories being Tories.
Pete, old radical,

You cannot annex the meaning of a word so that it only means what you mean (whatever that is). There can be all sorts of radical policies (in the sense of being large departures from previous methods and intents of a policy) that are not confined to nice policies such as those of Attlee's government.

For example, the current proposals of that Suella monster to do away with all sorts of constraints on government that prevent them from committing what are essentially highly immoral acts (as judged so in our society) are right;y described as radical. They would be a huge departure from the now long term attempts of we British to effect more democracy, tolerance and equal rights & duties under the rule of law. Essentially, Suella wants a not-at-all benign dictatorship unconstrained by law or any considerations other than her totalitarian "dreams".

That's radical, that is.

Cugel, preferring evolution to revolution.
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
pete75
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Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by pete75 »

Cugel wrote: 8 Dec 2022, 11:40am
pete75 wrote: 7 Dec 2022, 10:38pm
Who's arguing about the meaning of an adjective? The founding of the NHS is, without a doubt, the most radical health policy enacted by any UK government ever. The complete shake up of secondary education at the time was radical. The nationalisation of the railways was too. The introduction of a comprehensive planning system in the 1947 act similarly radical.

It's not radical policies that have caused problems, rather the watering down of the radical policies put into practice by the first Atlee government that's causing problems for a lot of folk today.

What you describe as a radical policy, tax cuts for the wealthy and the poor becoming poorer isn't. It's just Tories being Tories.
Pete, old radical,

You cannot annex the meaning of a word so that it only means what you mean (whatever that is). There can be all sorts of radical policies (in the sense of being large departures from previous methods and intents of a policy) that are not confined to nice policies such as those of Attlee's government.

For example, the current proposals of that Suella monster to do away with all sorts of constraints on government that prevent them from committing what are essentially highly immoral acts (as judged so in our society) are right;y described as radical. They would be a huge departure from the now long term attempts of we British to effect more democracy, tolerance and equal rights & duties under the rule of law. Essentially, Suella wants a not-at-all benign dictatorship unconstrained by law or any considerations other than her totalitarian "dreams".

That's radical, that is.

Cugel, preferring evolution to revolution.
Where did I say radical policies can only be a good thing? I was responding to a couple of posts implying they were always bad, sowas merely pointing out that radical policies can be a good thing. Depends on your political viewpoint which radical policies you think are a good thing. For example many centre right folk thought the radical Thatcher policies were a good thing. Many centre left thought the radical Atlee policies a good thing.

Democracy, freedom - that's a myth. It's confined to putting a cross on a bit of paper every five years or so. Once elected our masters in Westminster pass laws to make us do things they want us to do and make us stop doing things they don't want us to do. We're kept to their laws by the use of force. We can even be forcibly dragged off to prison for non-payment of council tax.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
mumbojumbo
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Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by mumbojumbo »

Radical equality and the Acts in 1978 did much to combat ,and outlaw prejudice. We were aping Martin Luther and Rosa Luxemburg.
reohn2
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Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by reohn2 »

wheelyhappy99 wrote: 7 Dec 2022, 8:33pm JK Galbraith:

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
+1 and has been for some time
PS,and I include NewLabour in that!
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
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Cugel
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Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by Cugel »

reohn2 wrote: 8 Dec 2022, 4:57pm
wheelyhappy99 wrote: 7 Dec 2022, 8:33pm JK Galbraith:

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
+1 and has been for some time
PS,and I include NewLabour in that!
You can hardly call what they come with "philosophy". On the other hand,many philosophies do include great dollops of delusion, tautology and all of the other faults to be found in large and rotting dollops when reading, say, tracts trying to justify neoliberalism or the tedious babble of Ayn Rand.

When are we going to stop calling modern Tories and their ilk the Orwellian doublespeak "conservatives" in favour of a much more accurate description such as "rabid revolutionaries" or "kleptocratic snob-louts"? After all, they seem to have conserved nothing much from the history of British cultural and social institutions other than those strands of English class bigotry they exude and their self-appointed aristocratic exceptionalism. All else has been destroyed so that they can keep and increase their many privileges whilst finally eschewing any notion of noblesse oblige.

Time to nail the list of difficult questions (to answer) on the Parliamentary door!

Cugel Luther
Last edited by Cugel on 9 Dec 2022, 2:38pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
reohn2
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Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by reohn2 »

Luther
I couldn't agree more! :wink:
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Psamathe
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Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by Psamathe »

This is rather concerning about the governance of the country
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/dec/10/liz-truss-and-kwasi-kwarteng-got-carried-away-writing-mini-budget wrote:Liz Truss and I ‘got carried away’ writing mini-budget, admits Kwasi Kwarteng
Kwasi Kwarteng has admitted he and Liz Truss “got carried away” when they wrote the disastrous mini-budget that led to both of them leaving their jobs just weeks after they entered Downing Street.
...
The MP for Spelthorne, who was sacked by Truss after 38 days, has now said that the then prime minister and her team had lost perspective on the budget and its political or financial consequences.

“People got carried away, myself included,” Kwarteng said. “There was no tactical subtlety whatsoever.

“There was a brief moment and the people in charge, myself included, blew it.”
...
Ian
Bonefishblues
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Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by Bonefishblues »

Psamathe wrote: 10 Dec 2022, 4:16pm This is rather concerning about the governance of the country
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/dec/10/liz-truss-and-kwasi-kwarteng-got-carried-away-writing-mini-budget wrote:Liz Truss and I ‘got carried away’ writing mini-budget, admits Kwasi Kwarteng
Kwasi Kwarteng has admitted he and Liz Truss “got carried away” when they wrote the disastrous mini-budget that led to both of them leaving their jobs just weeks after they entered Downing Street.
...
The MP for Spelthorne, who was sacked by Truss after 38 days, has now said that the then prime minister and her team had lost perspective on the budget and its political or financial consequences.

“People got carried away, myself included,” Kwarteng said. “There was no tactical subtlety whatsoever.

“There was a brief moment and the people in charge, myself included, blew it.”
...
Ian
I don't think that is much of a revelation, but it is unusually honest and self-aware I'd suggest
reohn2
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Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by reohn2 »

Bonefishblues wrote: 10 Dec 2022, 5:30pm
Psamathe wrote: 10 Dec 2022, 4:16pm This is rather concerning about the governance of the country
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/dec/10/liz-truss-and-kwasi-kwarteng-got-carried-away-writing-mini-budget wrote:Liz Truss and I ‘got carried away’ writing mini-budget, admits Kwasi Kwarteng
Kwasi Kwarteng has admitted he and Liz Truss “got carried away” when they wrote the disastrous mini-budget that led to both of them leaving their jobs just weeks after they entered Downing Street.
...
The MP for Spelthorne, who was sacked by Truss after 38 days, has now said that the then prime minister and her team had lost perspective on the budget and its political or financial consequences.

“People got carried away, myself included,” Kwarteng said. “There was no tactical subtlety whatsoever.

“There was a brief moment and the people in charge, myself included, blew it.”
...
Ian
I don't think that is much of a revelation, but it is unusually honest and self-aware I'd suggest
It's a bit like a dentist who performed brain surgery on one of his patients because he thought they needed it,then admitted he "got carried away".
It's a shame these loonies weren't "self aware" when they almost bankrupt the country :?
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Bonefishblues
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Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by Bonefishblues »

reohn2 wrote: 10 Dec 2022, 5:54pm
Bonefishblues wrote: 10 Dec 2022, 5:30pm
Psamathe wrote: 10 Dec 2022, 4:16pm This is rather concerning about the governance of the country

Ian
I don't think that is much of a revelation, but it is unusually honest and self-aware I'd suggest
It's a bit like a dentist who performed brain surgery on one of his patients because he thought they needed it,then admitted he "got carried away".
It's a shame these loonies weren't "self aware" when they almost bankrupt the country :?
In some perversely reassuring sense our country, its administration and its democracy dealt with the foolishness very quickly and effectively.
Psamathe
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Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by Psamathe »

Bonefishblues wrote: 10 Dec 2022, 6:55pm
reohn2 wrote: 10 Dec 2022, 5:54pm
Bonefishblues wrote: 10 Dec 2022, 5:30pm

I don't think that is much of a revelation, but it is unusually honest and self-aware I'd suggest
It's a bit like a dentist who performed brain surgery on one of his patients because he thought they needed it,then admitted he "got carried away".
It's a shame these loonies weren't "self aware" when they almost bankrupt the country :?
In some perversely reassuring sense our country, its administration and its democracy dealt with the foolishness very quickly and effectively.
I tend to feel that a sensible mature democracy should have adequate safeguards to prevent such issues. Truss/Kwarteng may have been removed but safeguards should never have allowed their madness.

Has all their damage "recovered"?

Ian
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Cugel
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Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by Cugel »

Bonefishblues wrote: 10 Dec 2022, 6:55pm
reohn2 wrote: 10 Dec 2022, 5:54pm
Bonefishblues wrote: 10 Dec 2022, 5:30pm

I don't think that is much of a revelation, but it is unusually honest and self-aware I'd suggest
It's a bit like a dentist who performed brain surgery on one of his patients because he thought they needed it,then admitted he "got carried away".
It's a shame these loonies weren't "self aware" when they almost bankrupt the country :?
In some perversely reassuring sense our country, its administration and its democracy dealt with the foolishness very quickly and effectively.
Are you kiddin'!? Broken Britain has been badly mismanaged through all the decades since the Thatcher Thing got power and began the ongoing Tory revolution to stop us making goods and services in favour of making money (but only for "people like us" meaning like Thatcher and her dad or those above them in the lovely British class system). So-called New Labour were not substantially different other than dishing out a few more pence to the peasants than did/do the Vic-Tory-uns.

The replacements for the Trussock & KamiKwaze are just as bad at economics and justice-as-fairness but a bit less swivel-eyed at the PR spins & lies.

Criminal spivs; or a 4th rate mafia. Time they were all had-up, not just for theft but also murder and possibly treason!

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
Dingdong
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Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by Dingdong »

I'm Trussed off with the whole sorry saga.
pete75
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Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by pete75 »

Cugel wrote: 10 Dec 2022, 8:50pm
Bonefishblues wrote: 10 Dec 2022, 6:55pm
reohn2 wrote: 10 Dec 2022, 5:54pm
It's a bit like a dentist who performed brain surgery on one of his patients because he thought they needed it,then admitted he "got carried away".
It's a shame these loonies weren't "self aware" when they almost bankrupt the country :?
In some perversely reassuring sense our country, its administration and its democracy dealt with the foolishness very quickly and effectively.
Are you kiddin'!? Broken Britain has been badly mismanaged through all the decades since the Thatcher Thing got power and began the ongoing Tory revolution to stop us making goods and services in favour of making money (but only for "people like us" meaning like Thatcher and her dad or those above them in the lovely British class system). So-called New Labour were not substantially different other than dishing out a few more pence to the peasants than did/do the Vic-Tory-uns.

The replacements for the Trussock & KamiKwaze are just as bad at economics and justice-as-fairness but a bit less swivel-eyed at the PR spins & lies.

Criminal spivs; or a 4th rate mafia. Time they were all had-up, not just for theft but also murder and possibly treason!

Cugel
Well it just shows it's not always true the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, sometimes the rich get richer and the poor stay the same.

As for Thatcher's dad, there was a whiff of Savile about him. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/that ... 57249.html . Nothing in that article that hadn't been common knowledge in the pubs of Grantham for years beforehand.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Bonefishblues
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Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by Bonefishblues »

Cugel wrote: 10 Dec 2022, 8:50pm
Bonefishblues wrote: 10 Dec 2022, 6:55pm
reohn2 wrote: 10 Dec 2022, 5:54pm
It's a bit like a dentist who performed brain surgery on one of his patients because he thought they needed it,then admitted he "got carried away".
It's a shame these loonies weren't "self aware" when they almost bankrupt the country :?
In some perversely reassuring sense our country, its administration and its democracy dealt with the foolishness very quickly and effectively.
Are you kiddin'!? Broken Britain has been badly mismanaged through all the decades since the Thatcher Thing got power and began the ongoing Tory revolution to stop us making goods and services in favour of making money (but only for "people like us" meaning like Thatcher and her dad or those above them in the lovely British class system). So-called New Labour were not substantially different other than dishing out a few more pence to the peasants than did/do the Vic-Tory-uns.

The replacements for the Trussock & KamiKwaze are just as bad at economics and justice-as-fairness but a bit less swivel-eyed at the PR spins & lies.

Criminal spivs; or a 4th rate mafia. Time they were all had-up, not just for theft but also murder and possibly treason!

Cugel
No. I am very obviously talking about this scenario. You are making a different, broader point.
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