This may be a first prosecution of an illegal ebike.

Electrically assisted bikes, trikes, etc. that are legal in the UK
Psamathe
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Re: This may be a first prosecution of an illegal ebike.

Post by Psamathe »

hemo wrote: 20 Sep 2022, 4:55pm At the end of the day the rating is what ever the manufacturer puts on the motor and as Cugel says for sure 250w or 350w labelling is the same motor, not sure about 500w but wouldn't surprise me the motor being the same if the voltage is the same. A 350w labelled one being the same as 250w laballed one, the only difference making it illegal is the labelling.
<off-topic>I remember in my student days how Honda 250 motorbikes were so popular (can't remember the exact model) because you could change only the crankshaft and turn it into a 350 but externally everything is still 250 (which was relevant to drivers licence).</off-topic>

Ian
Dingdong
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Re: This may be a first prosecution of an illegal ebike.

Post by Dingdong »

The law, as they so rightly say, is an ass :mrgreen:
mattheus
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Re: This may be a first prosecution of an illegal ebike.

Post by mattheus »

bikes4two wrote: 20 Sep 2022, 3:39pm
But I really have no idea, so feel free to educate me!
Ooh, now there's a challenge but seeing as I failed my 11+ you'd best read BSEN15194 for the answer - feely available on the internet as PDF - if you manage to wade throuh its many pages, you might come to the conclusion that I did, that many aspects of the EPAC law need updating to avoid ambiguity and beibg held in ridicule.
Thank-you both! But my main takeaway is that this is a mess :-/
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CJ
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Re: This may be a first prosecution of an illegal ebike.

Post by CJ »

hemo wrote: 20 Sep 2022, 4:55pm At the end of the day the rating is what ever the manufacturer puts on the motor and as Cugel says for sure 250w or 350w labelling is the same motor, not sure about 500w but wouldn't surprise me the motor being the same if the voltage is the same. A 350w labelled one being the same as 250w laballed one, the only difference making it illegal is the labelling.
It'll be the same motor, but a different battery voltage. The fact is a DC motor can be operated at a range of different voltages and will have a different output characteristic at each voltage. And at any voltage, the power output varies depending upon the speed at which the motor spins and how much current the controller allows it to draw. So the manufacturer's labelling has to consider not just the motor, but the system as a whole: motor, battery and controller. The continuous rated power will be measured when the motor is running at or close to peak efficiency. Demanding more torque, eg by going uphill, slows down the motor and causes it to draw more current. Power = torque × rpm (×PI/30) and in those conditions it is likely that torque will increase more than speed reduces, so that a bit more than the rated 250W is output. Whatever: the increased current at constant voltage greatly increases electrical power consumption, hence the drop in efficiency.

Electrical input is a simple thing to meter, so that's what e-bike tinkerers and internet bloggers do. Most of the tinkerers are after more power and speed and some of them have an agenda to subvert the EU rules on e-bikes. They seize upon these sometimes large, transitory power inputs and use them to spread confusion by allegations that EU-approved e-bikes regularly and greatly exceed their 250W rating. Figures as high as 800W are bandied about. Figures that high are probably mere speculation, but it's not unlikely that some approved systems could occasionally draw as much as 500W whilst still outputting only 250W - or perhaps a little more, as may be permitted by the way the regulations are written. The difference goes into heat of course, which the system may nevertheless be able to withstand - at least for a while.

Mechanical energy is far more difficult to measure than electricity, but that's what matters when it comes to the performance of the bicycle. We measure the performance of a human cyclist after all, by how many watts they can produce at the pedals, not the number of calories they must consume in order to do that!
Chris Juden
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stodd
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Re: This may be a first prosecution of an illegal ebike.

Post by stodd »

CJ wrote: 21 Sep 2022, 1:22pm Mechanical energy is far more difficult to measure than electricity, but that's what matters when it comes to the performance of the bicycle.
Absolutely. It's only a simulation, but you can get a good idea of efficiency and mechanical power from different motors with different controllers etc at
https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html? ... ade=0&hp=0
(that's for our relatively basic nominal 250w XF07, showing simulated mechanical output of 411w.
the snail
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Re: This may be a first prosecution of an illegal ebike.

Post by the snail »

CJ wrote: 21 Sep 2022, 1:22pm
It'll be the same motor, but a different battery voltage.
Not necessarily, the only difference might be the firmware in the controller.
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CJ
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Re: This may be a first prosecution of an illegal ebike.

Post by CJ »

the snail wrote: 1 Oct 2022, 3:36pm
CJ wrote: 21 Sep 2022, 1:22pm
It'll be the same motor, but a different battery voltage.
Not necessarily, the only difference might be the firmware in the controller.
Yes, I know that the controller modulates the voltage (that's why I included 'controller' when describing the whole system), but I didn't want to go into so much detail in that reply. The topic is confusing enough for non-engineers already!
Chris Juden
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Manc33
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Re: This may be a first prosecution of an illegal ebike.

Post by Manc33 »

350W and no pedals? That won't get up hills.
We'll always be together, together on electric bikes.
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Vantage
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Re: This may be a first prosecution of an illegal ebike.

Post by Vantage »

Manc33 wrote: 2 Oct 2022, 4:26pm 350W and no pedals? That won't get up hills.
Mine gets me up a fairly steep hill using no more than 250w.
It's all down to the gearing.
Bill


“Ride as much or as little, or as long or as short as you feel. But ride.” ~ Eddy Merckx
It's a rich man whos children run to him when his pockets are empty.
PH
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Re: This may be a first prosecution of an illegal ebike.

Post by PH »

Manc33 wrote: 2 Oct 2022, 4:26pm 350W and no pedals? That won't get up hills.
Of course it will, it just needs to be geared right.
Most cyclist can get up hills on less output than that, why wouldn't a motor?
hemo
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Re: This may be a first prosecution of an illegal ebike.

Post by hemo »

Another ebiker is in line for a prosecution after the Met found his bike to be illegallly adjusted for speed following a collision with a pedestrian who suffered a head injury on 30 Sept on Park Lane. The ebiker has been reported for no licence or insurance and the bike seized.
jois
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Re: This may be a first prosecution of an illegal ebike.

Post by jois »

hemo wrote: 3 Oct 2022, 6:18pm Another ebiker is in line for a prosecution after the Met found his bike to be illegallly adjusted for speed following a collision with a pedestrian who suffered a head injury on 30 Sept on Park Lane. The ebiker has been reported for no licence or insurance and the bike seized.
A pound he claims it was adjusted by some random bystander , no chain of evidence ! he stands a fair chance with that
Jdsk
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Re: This may be a first prosecution of an illegal ebike.

Post by Jdsk »

hemo wrote: 3 Oct 2022, 6:18pm Another ebiker is in line for a prosecution after the Met found his bike to be illegallly adjusted for speed following a collision with a pedestrian who suffered a head injury on 30 Sept on Park Lane. The ebiker has been reported for no licence or insurance and the bike seized.
TTBOMK I've only heard of that approach (that's not an eBike it's a moped/motorcycle) once before. Does anyone know how many there have been?

And have you got a source for this one, please?

Jonathan
hemo
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Re: This may be a first prosecution of an illegal ebike.

Post by hemo »

Jdsk
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Re: This may be a first prosecution of an illegal ebike.

Post by Jdsk »

Thanks.

That seems to require me to log-in somewhere...

It sounds like:

"Walker gets a head injury after cyclist on illegally modified bike hits them":
https://www.mylondon.news/news/zone-1-n ... r-25159666

following:

https://twitter.com/MPSRoyal_Parks/stat ... 9744583681

Jonathan
Last edited by Jdsk on 3 Oct 2022, 7:33pm, edited 1 time in total.
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