Cantilever upgrade

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Philip_Rogers
Posts: 51
Joined: 22 Sep 2007, 9:17pm

Cantilever upgrade

Post by Philip_Rogers »

I have a Paul Hewitt Cheviot SE 2013 with Tektro CR720 cantilver brakes. The brakes have never been great despite upgrating to KoolStop dual compound pads. I now also have a Birdy for commuting which has Deore hydraulic brakes, these are so much better esp in the wet.

I was minded the get a new light tourer with hydraulic discs to replace the Cheviot but there's not a lot out there (Spa D'Tour, Elan, Enigma Escape£££), and my current bike was so well set up by Paul it is nice to ride all day.

The question is would upgrading from CR720s to Avid Shorty Ultimate cantis be a worthwhile upgrade? Has anyone done this, and do they make much of a difference? I appreciate they'd be about £200 but that's less than a new bike even with Cyclescheme.

Thanks for any opinions offered!
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fausto99
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Location: NW Kent

Re: Cantilever upgrade

Post by fausto99 »

Are you sure they’re adjusted properly, particularly the straddle cable?
GideonReade
Posts: 410
Joined: 4 Jul 2010, 10:46pm

Re: Cantilever upgrade

Post by GideonReade »

Why not go to mini vees instead? I put these on the front of my 1980s tourer, and they work well and are a bunch less hassle.
Philip_Rogers
Posts: 51
Joined: 22 Sep 2007, 9:17pm

Re: Cantilever upgrade

Post by Philip_Rogers »

fausto99 wrote: 21 Sep 2022, 3:12pm Are you sure they’re adjusted properly, particularly the straddle cable?
Definitely adjusted right. My ride home from work is down a long steep hill. I descend almost 650ft in just over a mile. The cantis are just not so great and I do check the alignment.
Philip_Rogers
Posts: 51
Joined: 22 Sep 2007, 9:17pm

Re: Cantilever upgrade

Post by Philip_Rogers »

GideonReade wrote: 21 Sep 2022, 3:38pm Why not go to mini vees instead? I put these on the front of my 1980s tourer, and they work well and are a bunch less hassle.
That is another option. The frame is set up with hangers for canti cables so might look odd with them empty. I like the look less but that's secondary to the bike stopping downhill in the rain!
rogerzilla
Posts: 2887
Joined: 9 Jun 2008, 8:06pm

Re: Cantilever upgrade

Post by rogerzilla »

There's not much adjustment possible with CR720 brakes. Straddle angle has no effect. You can try putting the thicker pad spacer inboard of the brake arm, if it isn't already.

All canti brakes are weak by modern standards, unless matched to a really good lever like the old DX 4-finger flat bar lever. The best you can usually do with these is to fit better pads, which means Kool-Stop salmon.
iandusud
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Joined: 26 Mar 2018, 1:35pm

Re: Cantilever upgrade

Post by iandusud »

+1 for linear pull brakes. Just be sure to get the right length in relation to the pull of your brake levers. I use a linear pull brake on the front of our tandem which works very well even when loaded up with camping gear.
peetee
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Re: Cantilever upgrade

Post by peetee »

Using old-style (exposed cable) Tiagra 10 speed levers I did the opposite swap and found the Tektros much better than Avids.
I swapped again and found Shimano BR - CX50 better still.
The older I get the more I’m inclined to act my shoe size, not my age.
Philip_Rogers
Posts: 51
Joined: 22 Sep 2007, 9:17pm

Re: Cantilever upgrade

Post by Philip_Rogers »

peetee wrote: 21 Sep 2022, 5:06pm Using old-style (exposed cable) Tiagra 10 speed levers I did the opposite swap and found the Tektros much better than Avids.
I swapped again and found Shimano BR - CX50 better still.
That's interesting. I have similar style 9-speed Ultegra STIs with exposed cable wires.
scottg
Posts: 1218
Joined: 10 Jan 2008, 8:44pm
Location: Highland Heights Kentucky,, USA

Re: Cantilever upgrade

Post by scottg »

Philip_Rogers wrote: 21 Sep 2022, 2:05pm
Thanks for any opinions offered!
How are you at geometry ?, in the States we used cantilever setup as our practical test for university.
Makes for small math classes.

Anyway, all the geometrical details here.
https://www.chapmancycles.com/cantilevers/
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Deutsche Luftschiffahrts-AG
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PT1029
Posts: 1744
Joined: 16 Apr 2012, 9:20pm

Re: Cantilever upgrade

Post by PT1029 »

Definitely adjusted right
Just to be sure, are they set up correctly (not quite the same as adjustment...)?.

Avid shorty cantilever geometry, I have adjusted many at work (often need setting up first...), I have always found these far inferior to correctly set up wide arm cantilevers,
My tourer still running on 1980s mk 1 Shimano XT cantis. Not as strong as V brakes, but a lot more modulation. They do work much better with clean rims/pads.
If you want more powerful brakes, mini V's are a way to go, but these may have cable clearance issues if you run mud guards and chuncky tyres. Or V brakes (definately more powerful than cantis), but then you'll need to change the levers.......
The other issue is it is no longer just canti and V levers, Shimano STI levers (if you use these) come in more than one cable pull version over time, SSR, NSSR or what ever the versions are.
I'm afraid I start to lose the will to follow all of Shimano's multily incompatible "improvements"!
sjs
Posts: 1306
Joined: 24 Jan 2010, 10:08pm
Location: Hitchin

Re: Cantilever upgrade

Post by sjs »

Philip_Rogers wrote: 21 Sep 2022, 5:30pm
peetee wrote: 21 Sep 2022, 5:06pm Using old-style (exposed cable) Tiagra 10 speed levers I did the opposite swap and found the Tektros much better than Avids.
I swapped again and found Shimano BR - CX50 better still.
That's interesting. I have similar style 9-speed Ultegra STIs with exposed cable wires.
BR-CX70s (more or less the same as 50s), with straddle wire set as low as possible, make my brakes actually quite good. Much better than the Tektros the bike came with, and whose geometry makes straddle arrangement more or less irrrelevant, I read somewhere.
PH
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Re: Cantilever upgrade

Post by PH »

How about halving the cost and just swapping the front brake? Considering that's where most of your stopping ability comes from it'd probably be enough. I quite like cantis, I wasn't too keen on the original Tektro Oryx that came on my Cheviot, so upgraded to the 720's which I thought were fine. On another bike I splashed out and fitted the IRD Cafams*, which were the best canti I'd tried, though i was using flat bar levers which might have helped. My latest Hewitt build (And my last as I've just sold it) had a Paul Components Touring on the front, I didn't do a lot of miles, but from those I did it appeared to be as good as the IRD's.
Points above re matching levers is important, I haven't had any Shimano STI's, I've either used flat bar levers or Campag Ergo's. With the levers I have had, I can get mid profile cantis to work as well as V brakes, though V brakes are much less fussy about set up.

As an alternative - if you think discs suit you better, maybe you could swap the fork? Assuming your Hewitt is 1 1/8th headset, I'm pretty sure they were common enough dimensions for there to be plenty of disc options, both steel and carbon. Maybe Paul Hewitt could advice. Fork, caliper, wheel and rotor is going to be more expensive than just changing brakes, but still less than a new bike.

And to finally answer your question - No I wouldn't upgrade to the Avid Ultimates. They're main selling point is they can be changed between mid to low profile (EDIT - or should that be high and low?), that might be useful of a CX bike where the best brake for racing might change from day to day (Even hour to hour) but if you don't need that ability, and on a touring bike you probably don't, I can't see any advantage.

* The original mid profile design, the current version is completely different and I have no experience of them.
Last edited by PH on 22 Sep 2022, 10:48am, edited 1 time in total.
rogerzilla
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Joined: 9 Jun 2008, 8:06pm

Re: Cantilever upgrade

Post by rogerzilla »

CR720s have horizontal arms so are insensitive to straddle geometry. They also take threaded V-brake pattern pads, so adjustment there is limited to swapping a couple of washers around.

The problem with V-brakes and drop bar levers is well known. There are special levers with more cable pull, but they are not great.
Norman H
Posts: 1331
Joined: 31 Jul 2011, 4:39pm

Re: Cantilever upgrade

Post by Norman H »

What brake levers are you using?

What cable hanger are you using on the front brake ?

When I fitted Shimano STIs to one of my my bikes the performance of the CR720 brakes was sub optimal when braking from the hoods. The new levers were Dura Ace 9 X 3 and the previous levers were Tektro BL 340. The performance was markedly improved when I fitted a fork crown mounted up-hanger in place of the previous head set hanger. Head set hangers can introduce a lot of cable friction if the outer cable is bent sharply where it emerges from the bar tape. The extra friction will rob you of a lot mechanical advantage. An up-hanger allows for a much better cable route.

Cantilever brakes are much more susceptible to cable friction than linear pull brakes because of the greater cable tension required.

Edit to add: I should just say that the drop in performance when braking from the hoods with the Dura Ace levers was due entirely to the ergonomics of the levers.
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