Could the change to devolution have been handled better?

[Tangled Metal]

Basically I ask could there have been a better option at the time? Perhaps a more democratic option based on a federal system instead of selective devolution of powers or no devolution?

I think the option should have be status quo or full federal system that's equal across the union. Perhaps with each nation getting one vote each based on local referendum so no claim the size of England skewing things unfairly.

All fantasy ideas but still an interesting concept that if you didn't want to make the change to benefit from the Labour majority in Scotland what would you think is the best option for the whole of the UK equally? Based on the assumption of equality across the union and the aim to keep the union.

[mjr]

Mainly, federalism is a dirty word in UK politics, so that would have never got through. Even the false accusations of federalism thrown at the Thatcher-designed European Union would have been nothing compared to the bile the press would have thrown at the idea of a Federal Kingdom.

Also, the idea of a federation, with sovereign States pooling some powers in a federal government, is incompatible with a Union, where the top body is sovereign and it decides what subsidiarity applies to, what powers go back to lower levels, so how could a federation keep the Union?

[Tangled Metal]

Interesting. Didn't think Union and federalism were incompatible, just thought that federalism just added equality over the devolved powers and responsibilities. Perhaps it's not federalism but another system I'm looking for?

Basically I'm thinking of equal arrangement for several parts of the whole of the United Kingdom such that there is more localism but at the same level and maintaining the larger unit. Not a parliament here, assembly there and even less somewhere else. I don't agree with selective and uneven devolution. I also don't think the 4 nations are the right boundaries to devolve power to. Like Northern England is as close to London economically/ politically as Northern Scotland is with the Glasgow/Edinburgh belt. Doesn't the hebrides differ a lot from Glasgow politically and socially I reckon too? I'd certainly like to see a devolution that could make real changes to the growth of Northern England. Perhaps devolution or federalism or other similar breaking up of the power of southern England on the other areas of England. Sw England probably needs something better too. Needs more than a holiday area!

[Paulatic]

I'd certainly like to see a devolution that could make real changes to the growth of Northern England.

Good luck with that. Have attitudes in England changed that much since 2004? Whenever I visit I don’t detect it.

4 November 2004, voters in the North East rejected the proposal, in an all-postal ballot, by 77.9% to 22.1%, on a turnout of 48%.

[irc]

What is wrong with devolution? In Scotland we control almost all day to day matters. Land use. Roads. Health. Education. Police. Fire. Local Govt. Income Tax

What advantages would a federal system have?

[pwa]

When Blair introduced devolution for the nations he offered a similar thing to the English regions, and it proved unpopular, so it was ditched. If I remember rightly the objection was mainly about having one more tier of government that would need to be funded.

[Ben@Forest]

The building of the Scottish Parliament could definitely have been handled better, grossly over budget, but it also appears that Donald Dewar, Scotland's first minister at the time of devolution (and often called the 'Father of Devolution) deliberately kept information from the public about cost increases.

Dewar died in 2000, if he'd lived longer there's little doubt he'd have faced a lot of difficult questions and excoricating criticism.

[Paulatic]

The building of the Scottish Parliament could definitely have been handled better, grossly over budget,

Ah but look what you get It’s voice from an award winning building is heard all over Scotland. A vision of a future.
Compare that to the recent, way over budget, restoration of Big Ben. It can only be heard in a small part of London. A symbol of the past.

[Mick F]

Big Ben hasn't been restored.
It's a bell, not a tower.

[jois]

The building of the Scottish Parliament could definitely have been handled better, grossly over budget,

Ah but look what you get It’s voice from an award winning building is heard all over Scotland. A vision of a future.
Compare that to the recent, way over budget, restoration of Big Ben. It can only be heard in a small part of London. A symbol of the past.

I'm not sure it's a symbol at all. What do you think it symbolises?

Trafalgar Square is a symbol. But the sybombolic nature of that seems to have changed over time

[Jdsk]

The building of the Scottish Parliament could definitely have been handled better, grossly over budget,

Ah but look what you get It’s voice from an award winning building is heard all over Scotland. A vision of a future.
Compare that to the recent, way over budget, restoration of Big Ben. It can only be heard in a small part of London. A symbol of the past.

I'm not sure it's a symbol at all. What do you think it symbolises?

Trafalgar Square is a symbol. But the sybombolic nature of that seems to have changed over time

The Palace of Westminster symbolises London, England, parliamentary government and probably lots of other things.

But as a work of architecture it symbolises looking to the past rather than the future. And always did.

And not fixing it when it's both unfit to support modern government and falling apart has symbolism all of its own.

Jonathan

[Ben@Forest]

And of course Big Ben (though as has been pointed out the restoration was of the Elizabeth Tower was restored not just a bell) really is heard all over the country, even if by the media of TV or radio or computer in a way that the Scottish Parliament is not. I read once that the tower is one of the 10 most instagrammed locations in the world - I'm definitely sure the Scottish Parliament won't be...

Though it's very subjective I think the Scottish Parliament is a carbuncle of a building (thanks to one Charles III for the description ) though I have never been inside. Are they still using wood biomass boilers? I know they went in originally, don't know if it's still seen as the 'right environmental choice'.

[mjr]

When Blair introduced devolution for the nations he offered a similar thing to the English regions, and it proved unpopular, so it was ditched. If I remember rightly the objection was mainly about having one more tier of government that would need to be funded.

The objection was more that the press barons didn't want it to replace the cosy quangos run by their friends. The regonal devolution tier would have replaced some national agencies, lots of county bodies but all of the unelected Regional Assemblies and Regional Development Agencies run by big business chiefs. Instead of an accountable directly-elected body, that sick system continued for a few years until the Cameron coalition replaced it with even more unelected Local Enterprise Partnerships, Local Transport Bodies, Combined Authorities, Business Enterprise Zones, City Deals, Town Deals and many more I forget, costing far more than regional government would have, but run by businesspeople, not elected.

[jois]

Ah but look what you get It’s voice from an award winning building is heard all over Scotland. A vision of a future.
Compare that to the recent, way over budget, restoration of Big Ben. It can only be heard in a small part of London. A symbol of the past.

I'm not sure it's a symbol at all. What do you think it symbolises?

Trafalgar Square is a symbol. But the sybombolic nature of that seems to have changed over time

The Palace of Westminster symbolises London, England, parliamentary government and probably lots of other things.

But as a work of architecture it symbolises looking to the past rather than the future. And always did.

And not fixing it when it's both unfit to support modern government and falling apart has symbolism all of its own.

Jonathan

It is neo gothic. So yes the past, a very old past at that and not an English or British past ,gothic architecture is all over Europe .

But the question was about big Ben or more accurately the clock tower. What is it that symbolises specifically

[Paulatic]

Big Ben hasn't been restored.
It's a bell, not a tower.

The clock mechanism was overhauled in Cumbria. At least it brought some work North.