Dissappointing wheel performance

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arnsider
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Dissappointing wheel performance

Post by arnsider »

I had three broken spokes in my front wheel in the space of three weeks.
The wheel was a Shimano MT 500. A waste of space on an electric Hybrid, used exclusively on tarmac.
I replaced it with a DT Swiss 32 spoke wheel with SAPIM spokes, recommended by a well known wheel builder and costing nearly £200 taking advice from the supplier.
After 570 miles on road, this wheel broke a spoke adjacent the valve hole.
The spoke went at the top of a steep Lakeland descent.
I am 105 kg
The supplier has offered to replace and true the wheel, but I assume I'll have to cover carriage costs and insuranc. I have opted for the supply of spokes, nipples and tape and I'll get it done locally.
Can anyone comment on this please.
wirral_cyclist
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Re: Dissappointing wheel performance

Post by wirral_cyclist »

I'm 82kg and broke many a spoke in factory wheels! I've had only one spoke go on handbuilt wheels. You are heavier, the bike probably heavy too, so both combined you are more likely to have it happen. If the breaks become a trend that's when you need to worry more.
Say where you live and we may be able to recommend a local wheelbuilder.
PH
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Re: Dissappointing wheel performance

Post by PH »

I'd be disappointed as well.
I'm 95kg, frequently loaded, fair bit on unsurfaced cycle trails, plenty of rough roads, broken two spokes in 25 years, one on a cheap hybrid, the other crash damage. I've heard that occasionally spokes have manufacturing faults, my experience is that otherwise they don't break on a well built wheel unless being abused.
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Cugel
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Re: Dissappointing wheel performance

Post by Cugel »

Many but not all purveyors of wheels recommend a maximum weight for particular wheels or wheelsets. Unfortunately, not all do.

Even then, this is no guarantee that stuff won't break. It might be a manufacturing defect .... . It might be a particularly vigorous rider (I know a number who break stuff regularly despite being whippet-like). It might be abuse and neglect of the components, such as failure to remove dirt, wet and the sort of grime that can induce rust & rot.

How to differentiate the cases into those that might be manufacturing faults and those that might be something else? Not always easy. Perhaps Hambini can help? :-)

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
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arnsider
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Re: Dissappointing wheel performance

Post by arnsider »

I live near Lancaster.
The Whyte Coniston weighs 19.6 kg and I carry a pannier with spares and waterproofs.
I've had a long Saga of wheel problems since purchasing it three years ago.
The bike is basically a good machine and the Shimano Steps three-mode crank drive is very good, even though it has entry-level torque.
It was supplied with poorly specified factory wheels. The rear one showed signs of cracking near the spokes, so under the warranty, two Shimano MT 500 wheels were fitted, but they only had 24 spokes, so they failed too.
These Shimano MT 500 are a useless waste of space so be warned!
I had all on to get anything done until Whyte agreed to fund a hand-built rear wheel, which Paul Hewitt made for me.
I was okay about chancing the remaining front 24 spoke front wheel until on holiday in Somerset when I broke three spokes in the space of three weeks.
I decided to have a hand-built front wheel and was advised to have a DT Swiss wheel with Sapim spokes.
I really thought my woes were over! Now, this.
irc
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Re: Dissappointing wheel performance

Post by irc »

I must say I am surprised that the wheelbuilder suggested a 32 spoke front wheel. All else equal 36 spoke is stronger.

I am also 105Kg. I had a rear wheel built for me by Spa Cycles. 36 spoke. Shimano XT hubs. Sputnik rims. It had done thousands of miles of loaded touring carrying a usual load of 20kg. Including some off road sections like gravel roads and the Corrieyairick Pass.
It isn't light but compared to a light rider on a light whee at is probably a smaller percentage of overall weight.

I am no expert but I believe a good wheelbuilder should easily be able to build a reliable wheel allowing for it to be heavier than usual for a heavier rider and bike.
PH
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Re: Dissappointing wheel performance

Post by PH »

irc wrote: 28 Sep 2022, 12:43am I must say I am surprised that the wheelbuilder suggested a 32 spoke front wheel. All else equal 36 spoke is stronger.
I am also 105Kg. I had a rear wheel built for me by Spa Cycles. 36 spoke. Shimano XT hubs.
A 32 spoke front wheel is likely to be several times stronger than a 36 spoke rear! No dish and less load.
Really if you need a 36 spoke front wheel, then a 36 rear is inadequate. 32 front and 40 rear used to be the standard.
irc
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Re: Dissappointing wheel performance

Post by irc »

PH wrote: 28 Sep 2022, 1:03am
irc wrote: 28 Sep 2022, 12:43am I must say I am surprised that the wheelbuilder suggested a 32 spoke front wheel. All else equal 36 spoke is stronger.
I am also 105Kg. I had a rear wheel built for me by Spa Cycles. 36 spoke. Shimano XT hubs.
A 32 spoke front wheel is likely to be several times stronger than a 36 spoke rear! No dish and less load.
Really if you need a 36 spoke front wheel, then a 36 rear is inadequate. 32 front and 40 rear used to be the standard.
Agreed. But as the OP is complaining about spokes in a 32 front - why make it weaker to save the weight of 4 spokes.

As it happens I have a set of lighter handbuilt wheels 36/36 with a road width rear hub 130mm oln and have broken 3 spokes in the front and zero in the rear. In theory it shouldn't happen.

Why build 32 spoke wheels, front or rear, for a 105kg rider?
arnsider
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Re: Dissappointing wheel performance

Post by arnsider »

Well, I am not made of money and cannot go on spending on my wheels.
I'm going to go with the DT Swiss 32-spoke front wheel and get a wheel builder to fit a new spoke and true it correctly.
mattheus
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Re: Dissappointing wheel performance

Post by mattheus »

PH wrote: 28 Sep 2022, 1:03am
irc wrote: 28 Sep 2022, 12:43am I must say I am surprised that the wheelbuilder suggested a 32 spoke front wheel. All else equal 36 spoke is stronger.
I am also 105Kg. I had a rear wheel built for me by Spa Cycles. 36 spoke. Shimano XT hubs.
A 32 spoke front wheel is likely to be several times stronger than a 36 spoke rear! No dish and less load.
Yes - the 32 spoke build described sounds plenty adequate for the rider/bike being described. Unless you hugely over-engineer a wheel (making it very heavy and much less fun to ride), failures are always possible. The extra 4 spokes being discussed isn't going to make failures significantly less likely, IMO.

I think this failure is either bad luck, or bad wheel-building.
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Cugel
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Re: Dissappointing wheel performance

Post by Cugel »

mattheus wrote: 28 Sep 2022, 11:47am
PH wrote: 28 Sep 2022, 1:03am
irc wrote: 28 Sep 2022, 12:43am I must say I am surprised that the wheelbuilder suggested a 32 spoke front wheel. All else equal 36 spoke is stronger.
I am also 105Kg. I had a rear wheel built for me by Spa Cycles. 36 spoke. Shimano XT hubs.
A 32 spoke front wheel is likely to be several times stronger than a 36 spoke rear! No dish and less load.
Yes - the 32 spoke build described sounds plenty adequate for the rider/bike being described. Unless you hugely over-engineer a wheel (making it very heavy and much less fun to ride), failures are always possible. The extra 4 spokes being discussed isn't going to make failures significantly less likely, IMO.

I think this failure is either bad luck, or bad wheel-building.
Or perhaps a certain style of riding? Or wheel-neglect?

Before the OP becomes offended, I'll just mention once more that there are more causes of spokes breaking than poor manufacturing or a mismatch between rider/bike weight and spoke count. All such possible causes should be considered.

If the true cause(s) is/are difficult to identify, I would personally go for the "build them stronger" approach even if this would result in a theoretically over-engineered wheel. The weight penalty will be very small, in the total of bike, rider and luggage weight.

Cugel
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Vantage
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Re: Dissappointing wheel performance

Post by Vantage »

I've always gone for the strongest wheel I can get regardless of its use. Spa built me a pair of wheels using sapim double butted spokes (plain guage on drive side rear) into Ryde sputnik 36hole rims. Bomb proof.
All this weight around 80kg and me at 67kg
PXL_20220912_090139003.jpg
across terrain like this
PXL_20220912_113821821.jpg
and not a single problem.
Bill


“Ride as much or as little, or as long or as short as you feel. But ride.” ~ Eddy Merckx
It's a rich man whos children run to him when his pockets are empty.
irc
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Re: Dissappointing wheel performance

Post by irc »

Cugel wrote: 28 Sep 2022, 12:35pm If the true cause(s) is/are difficult to identify, I would personally go for the "build them stronger" approach even if this would result in a theoretically over-engineered wheel. The weight penalty will be very small, in the total of bike, rider and luggage weight.

Cugel
Agreed

Unless riding competitively reliability outweighs weight IMO. Before my first long tour - cross USA - I read a good number of journal on Crazyguyonabike. By far the most frequent mechanical issue apart from punctures was spoke breakages. As I would be sometimes hundreds of miles from the nearest bike shop I wanted reliability.

I got the same Spa wheels as Vantage. I ended up riding around 12000 miles fully loaded touring on them without breaking a spoke. By that time the rear rim was a bit worn. The front was still OK. I used those wheels when I bought a Spa Steel tourer for local use and bought a new pair to put on my Surly.

When I looked at discussions on touring forums suggested rims were almost always significantly lighter than the Sputniks but as a heavy rider I view an extra 100g in each rim as good insurance.

Last time I was in the USA I did a 170 miles stretch across Nevada where there was nowhere to get water. Doing it over 2 days I started with 14.5L of fluids. I reckoned the total rider, bike, and load weight was around 148Kg. No problems.
arnsider
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Re: Dissappointing wheel performance

Post by arnsider »

I'm no stranger to loaded touring. I have a twenty-one-year-old Thorn Nomad 26-inch tourer that is on its third set of wheels. All of them with 32 spokes. I replaced the original Sun Rhino ones with a pair from Spa. the present ones are a pair made by Paul Hewitt.
I never had a spoke go and have done a couple of tours with front panniers. I accept the idea that it's either bad luck or bad workmanship.
My E-bike has hydraulic disc breaks back and front and a sprung front fork with the option to lock or unlock. At the time of the break, I had just come up to the summit between Caw and Stickle Pikle in the Duddon valley, after around twenty-five miles when the forks were locked rigid. There was a whine from the disc brake on the front.
wirral_cyclist
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Re: Dissappointing wheel performance

Post by wirral_cyclist »

There must be something else going on if this is the third wheelset that has failed, OK 1st wheelset might have been rubbish, but 2nd set shimano aren't that bad, but then for the handbuilt wheel failing is really unlikely.

Don't know what it could be to cause a failure as the declared weight isn't too bad, so weight wise a good handbuilt 32 should be enough, though upgrading to 36 would have been stronger again. For bombproof:- tandem 40 spoke = ££££'s.

I hope it might be just an odd spoke failure and all will be well after a new spoke is fitted, though some of the adjacent spokes may have been overloaded if ridden too much after the first failure I suppose. I had a single spoke pull through a rim and then had cascade failure into adjacent rim holes :(
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