How to keep tent floor dry?

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Galactic
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Re: How to keep tent floor dry?

Post by Galactic »

pjclinch wrote: 3 Oct 2022, 7:33am Thing with the shower curtain is it will work fine in benign situations but come the time you actually really need a waterproof floor it'll demonstrate why tents tend to come with bathtub groundsheets, rather than just groundsheets...
I've had good experiences with plastic sheeting placed inside the tent, providing it's big enough to lap up the sides a little. That way the water ingresses/flows beneath the sheeting, leaving everything on top dry. (I like the idea of a shower curtain because it's thick enough to resist tearing).
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pjclinch
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Re: How to keep tent floor dry?

Post by pjclinch »

Galactic wrote: 4 Oct 2022, 3:46pm
pjclinch wrote: 3 Oct 2022, 7:33am Thing with the shower curtain is it will work fine in benign situations but come the time you actually really need a waterproof floor it'll demonstrate why tents tend to come with bathtub groundsheets, rather than just groundsheets...
I've had good experiences with plastic sheeting placed inside the tent, providing it's big enough to lap up the sides a little. That way the water ingresses/flows beneath the sheeting, leaving everything on top dry. (I like the idea of a shower curtain because it's thick enough to resist tearing).
That'll work... though it doesn't sound much like fun or convenient when you just want to get out of the weather and in to something warm. I'm willing to throw a bit of money at my camping such that my convenience and fun goes up (hence the Hillebergs)... but it will work.

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Galactic
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Re: How to keep tent floor dry?

Post by Galactic »

pjclinch wrote: 4 Oct 2022, 5:33pm I'm willing to throw a bit of money at my camping such that my convenience and fun goes up (hence the Hillebergs)
Definitely. But the elasticity of "a bit of money" varies greatly. For me that means a Vaude rather than a Festival Special (which doesn't mean to say that I don't lovingly fondle the Hillebergs on display in outdoor shops 8) ).
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Re: How to keep tent floor dry?

Post by PH »

If you like the tent, replace the groundsheet. It isn't a huge job, anyone with a sewing machine will be able to do it, the biggest part is unpicking the old one and that's time consuming rather than skilled. The material from the like of Pennine Fabrics will be about £15.
I wouldn't use a shower curtain as a groundsheet protector, there's nothing wrong with doing so, I just think you could do better. A woven and coated fabric will be just as waterproof, about the same weight if not lighter, but also add abrasion protection.
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pjclinch
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Re: How to keep tent floor dry?

Post by pjclinch »

PH wrote: 4 Oct 2022, 8:35pm If you like the tent, replace the groundsheet. It isn't a huge job, anyone with a sewing machine will be able to do it, the biggest part is unpicking the old one and that's time consuming rather than skilled. The material from the like of Pennine Fabrics will be about £15.
I wouldn't use a shower curtain as a groundsheet protector, there's nothing wrong with doing so, I just think you could do better. A woven and coated fabric will be just as waterproof, about the same weight if not lighter, but also add abrasion protection.
If you need a seam in the sheet then McNett Tenacious Tape will do what you need to seal it. Unfortunately the long/narrow flavour doesn't appear to exist in the UK, but I got a roll from the US for a fairly reasonable price that arrived in a week with no customs faff.

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pjclinch
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Re: How to keep tent floor dry?

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Galactic wrote: 4 Oct 2022, 5:43pm
pjclinch wrote: 4 Oct 2022, 5:33pm I'm willing to throw a bit of money at my camping such that my convenience and fun goes up (hence the Hillebergs)
Definitely. But the elasticity of "a bit of money" varies greatly. For me that means a Vaude rather than a Festival Special (which doesn't mean to say that I don't lovingly fondle the Hillebergs on display in outdoor shops 8) ).
You don't need a Hille, but I'd question the worth of a relatively upmarket tent if you have to faff around arranging internal extra groundsheets any time it's looking wet. If the weak link is the groundsheet, change it!

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ndmbike
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Re: How to keep tent floor dry?

Post by ndmbike »

pjclinch wrote: 3 Oct 2022, 7:47am
Blimey. If you can't kneel on a groundsheet without destroying the waterproofing then frankly it's not fit for purpose. I've never been that keen on Terra Nova stuff but frankly I'd expect better of a Quasar. Been kneeling in my Saunders and Hilles for years and the groundsheets are still fine.

Detergent doesn't destroy waterproofing. Detergent works by reducing surface tension of water droplets so they can more easily penetrate the weave of a fabric and thus clean it better, but if the weave is covered by an impermeable layer of polyurethane (which groundsheets typically are) then that's a moot point. I certainly wouldn't go out of my way to use detergent (plain water usually enough, if not then warm water, if not then a little pure soap), but it's not waterproofing Armageddon that many people seem to think it is.

For total waterproofing you just need something with sufficient hydrostatic head that water can't be forced through it by the pressures it's routinely subjected to. That can be remarkably thin, though very thin sheets are easier to wear the coating off so they don't last so long and as they have pretty much zero insulation value are very, very prone to condensation.

Pete.
I guess I have been camping on harder, stonier ground than you have. I could feel the sharp bits of gravel through the fabric.
A couple of the small tears and cuts were visible in the ground sheet. There were likely to be other microtears/cuts.
As you say, detergent would allow water to penetrate more these more easily - hence losing the waterpoofing properties of the goundsheet.

Heh heh, I don't recall saying detergent could 'destroy waterproofing'.

The only way to avoid the damage to the groundsheet would be to camp on soft surfaces.
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Re: How to keep tent floor dry?

Post by PH »

pjclinch wrote: 4 Oct 2022, 8:44pm If you need a seam
Pete.
Most tent fabric is 1.5m wide, so you wouldn't need a seam in the floor for a Vaude Taurus. If it did, it's certainly still doable, though not as simple as I'd suggested. A one piece groundsheet on a bathtub style floor only has the corners that need sealing, maybe 100mm in each, I've just used seal sealant.
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Re: How to keep tent floor dry?

Post by pjclinch »

ndmbike wrote: 4 Oct 2022, 9:09pm
I guess I have been camping on harder, stonier ground than you have. I could feel the sharp bits of gravel through the fabric.
A couple of the small tears and cuts were visible in the ground sheet. There were likely to be other microtears/cuts.
Sounds like for the most part you have. That also sounds like what groundsheet protectors are for, and when I'm camping on e.g. shingle beaches out of my sea kayak that's when I use a groundsheet protector.
ndmbike wrote: 4 Oct 2022, 9:09pm As you say, detergent would allow water to penetrate more these more easily - hence losing the waterpoofing properties of the goundsheet.
Not really, it would help water penetrate where the coating had been worn off, but pressure (i.e. sitting on it) would be quite sufficient to do that anyway. If you've worn the waterproof coating off that's what makes the groundsheet not waterproof, not the detergent. The detergent would just help that not-waterproof-anyway bit leak a bit more readily.

If you have a leaky bit, why hot patch it?
ndmbike wrote: 4 Oct 2022, 9:09pm Heh heh, I don't recall saying detergent could 'destroy waterproofing'.
"Whatever you do, don't wash them with detergent. They lose any waterproofing they may have had."
Losing any waterproofing they may have had and destroying the waterproofing sound pretty analogous to me...

The waterproofing comes from the impermeable coating. If that's still there then detergent won't get in. If it isn't still there then it's already not waterproof.
ndmbike wrote: 4 Oct 2022, 9:09pm The only way to avoid the damage to the groundsheet would be to camp on soft surfaces.
Camping on soft surfaces is a pretty good idea, which is why most campers choose to do it and why most campsites provide it. Aside from the damage potential it's a lot more comfortable.
It's sharp surfaces, not just hard ones, that cause problems. If I pitch on a cement floor there's no particular reason the groundsheet would suffer much. But yes, you do get camp spots where there's no choice but to pitch on gravel, some of it a bit sharp, and that's what groundsheet protectors are for, along with the avoidance of pressure points you mentioned before. But when you mentioned it before you made it sound like a general case, not just for terrible pitches covered in sharp stones.

Pete.
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