Dallian Atkinson aquittal

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mattheus
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by mattheus »

jois wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 11:03am I think that supports my point, I'm not sure any other violent bully attacking a helpless man would have got off so lightly
I would hope the jury judged the case on its merits, and not whether anyone considered him a "violent bully":

... but actually I'm pretty sure many people have received similar sentences for similar actions. And usually out of pure malice (or drunkenness), not as part of their duties defending the public.

EDIT: just to be clear, I don't think the 8-year sentence was unduly harsh.
Jdsk
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by Jdsk »

R v Monk: Sentencing Remarks:
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/upl ... emarks.pdf

Jonathan
pete75
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by pete75 »

pwa wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 5:05am
pete75 wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 12:31am
pwa wrote: 28 Sep 2022, 10:08pm
If you read the item fully you will see that one officer was convicted of manslaughter in 2021 due to his part in this incident. The doubt was over the role of his young, inexperienced female colleague who claimed she was in fear at the time. I don't think that in the cool light of day her actions were always right, but I find it possible to believe that she acted with fear and confusion, and possibly even panic.
Acting out of fear when in "action". If a soldier acts out of fear isn't that called cowardice in the face of the enemy and attracts severe punishment....
I make some allowance for the fact she was an inexperienced recruit at the time. And fear for one's own life is deeply ingrained in most of us. If consumed by that fear, you could very well want to make sure that the cause of that fear was not going to get up again.
Some years ago whne I was a student in Leeds I was attacked by a mugger. I dropped him with a couple of punches but didn't then go on the kick him in the head a few times while he was on the ground to stop him getting up again. If he had tried to get up that's when I'd have hit him again. So no I don't make any allowance for what you describe.

Even after all these years I still have a faint white scar on the edge of my palm where he cuaght me with his knife. Was going for his wrist but was a bit too slow.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
jois
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by jois »

mattheus wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 11:26am
jois wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 11:03am I think that supports my point, I'm not sure any other violent bully attacking a helpless man would have got off so lightly
I would hope the jury judged the case on its merits, and not whether anyone considered him a "violent bully":

... but actually I'm pretty sure many people have received similar sentences for similar actions. And usually out of pure malice (or drunkenness), not as part of their duties defending the public.

EDIT: just to be clear, I don't think the 8-year sentence was unduly harsh.
It was a matter of fact he kicked a helpless man very hard in the face I think violent bully is a fair summary of that action. If you have a better one il give it consideration.

Kicking a helpless man was not part f his duty, the oath is pretty clear about that with out mentioning it specifically.

The charge of murder doesn't require intent to kill, only intent to cause serious harm that lead to the death. It's hard to see how a running kick on a helpless man is anything other than that.

People who kick other people to death are commonly held to a higher standard or punished more severely.

Have there been other non police judgements that leave you less than sure that was a fair sentence yes. Is there a trend for the police to be either acquitted, convicted of a lesser charge or receive unduly light sentences yes there is
Bonefishblues
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by Bonefishblues »

Jdsk wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 11:30am R v Monk: Sentencing Remarks:
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/upl ... emarks.pdf

Jonathan
Thanks Jonathan. It is a model of clarity.
jois
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by jois »

pete75 wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 11:34am
pwa wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 5:05am
pete75 wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 12:31am
Acting out of fear when in "action". If a soldier acts out of fear isn't that called cowardice in the face of the enemy and attracts severe punishment....
I make some allowance for the fact she was an inexperienced recruit at the time. And fear for one's own life is deeply ingrained in most of us. If consumed by that fear, you could very well want to make sure that the cause of that fear was not going to get up again.
Some years ago whne I was a student in Leeds I was attacked by a mugger. I dropped him with a couple of punches but didn't then go on the kick him in the head a few times while he was on the ground to stop him getting up again. If he had tried to get up that's when I'd have hit him again. So no I don't make any allowance for what you describe.

Even after all these years I still have a faint white scar on the edge of my palm where he cuaght me with his knife. Was going for his wrist but was a bit too slow.
Reasonable force applies to all of us, police as well. What is reasonable is very incident and person specific. It's what YOU honestly believe is required to defend yourself and or others in those circumstances. With however a reverse burden of proof

The issue arising that people once in fight mode have difficulty stopping, kicking punching hitting with an object etal and a bit of allowance is made for that if it's all part of one course of action, what you cant do is hand out punishment for their cheek in trying to mug you, after any threat of such has gone.

The question then for us and the jury, is did she honestly believe that prone tasered man was both an ongoing threat and that hitting him was the only reasonable course of action.or was it revenge \ punishment\adrenaline rush.

My view

There are less violent ways of being fairly sure someone on the floor will have great difficulty getting up, if those fail you can indeed resort to plan b and hit him
mattheus
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by mattheus »

I wish you all the best with your crusade.
jois
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by jois »

mattheus wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 12:20pm I wish you all the best with your crusade.
If that's aimed at me, I'm not on crusade in any reasonable use of the word. I am quite keen that the police should remove those prone to being violent beyond what could reasonably described as reasonable force from being in an official position.


The police unlike the rest of us, section 24 of PACE excluded have a power to use violence to gain compliance not just for self defence and it is this particular power that is often abused from just being physical compliance to being verbal compliance, otherwise known as torture
mattheus
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by mattheus »

jois wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 12:00pm
The question then for us and the jury, is did she honestly believe that prone tasered man was both an ongoing threat and that hitting him was the only reasonable course of action.or was it revenge \ punishment\adrenaline rush.
I think it's a mistake to lump those three together.

My speculation - and no more - is that the jury see a difference between them.

I agree with what some are saying that being able to manage adrenaline in such situations is HIGHLY desirable for a police officer; but that doesn't really impact on this criminal trial. It may well be that police internal action concludes the officer isn't made of "the right stuff".
jois
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by jois »

mattheus wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 12:39pm
jois wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 12:00pm
The question then for us and the jury, is did she honestly believe that prone tasered man was both an ongoing threat and that hitting him was the only reasonable course of action.or was it revenge \ punishment\adrenaline rush.
I think it's a mistake to lump those three together.

My speculation - and no more - is that the jury see a difference between them.

I agree with what some are saying that being able to manage adrenaline in such situations is HIGHLY desirable for a police officer; but that doesn't really impact on this criminal trial. It may well be that police internal action concludes the officer isn't made of "the right stuff".
They are all not a valid defence to a charge of ABH , I outlined the actual statutory defence above. Therefore lumping them is reasonable in my opinion.

Juries do what juries do, they seem to have a general disposition to treating police officers more favourable than others. That they do this at a subconscious level and not deliberate is bias is also not indoubt as such it's almost impossible to address

We will see police officers are difficult to sack with out a criminal conviction. It may be given the profile of the case they will sack her and take the hit in any civil case
mattheus
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by mattheus »

jois wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 12:29pm
mattheus wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 12:20pm I wish you all the best with your crusade.
If that's aimed at me, I'm not on crusade in any reasonable use of the word. I am quite keen that the police should remove those prone to being violent beyond what could reasonably described as reasonable force from being in an official position.


The police unlike the rest of us, section 24 of PACE excluded have a power to use violence to gain compliance not just for self defence and it is this particular power that is often abused from just being physical compliance to being verbal compliance, otherwise known as torture
This phrase is quite telling - I can't imagine any sane person thinking torture was occuring in this incident. So why mention it?
Hence my opinion you are on a crusade* against police officers (*better words may be available, please enlighten me).
jois
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by jois »

mattheus wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 1:01pm
jois wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 12:29pm
mattheus wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 12:20pm I wish you all the best with your crusade.
If that's aimed at me, I'm not on crusade in any reasonable use of the word. I am quite keen that the police should remove those prone to being violent beyond what could reasonably described as reasonable force from being in an official position.


The police unlike the rest of us, section 24 of PACE excluded have a power to use violence to gain compliance not just for self defence and it is this particular power that is often abused from just being physical compliance to being verbal compliance, otherwise known as torture
This phrase is quite telling - I can't imagine any sane person thinking torture was occuring in this incident. So why mention it?
Hence my opinion you are on a crusade* against police officers (*better words may be available, please enlighten me).
I wasn't referering to this incident, but rather police conduct in general

But i'm not convinced that in some situations beating civilians with a metal stick would not be reasonably termed as torture ,. Maybe not this one
Last edited by jois on 29 Sep 2022, 1:11pm, edited 1 time in total.
mattheus
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by mattheus »

jois wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 1:08pm I wasn't referering to this incedent, but rather police conduct in general.
That's kinda my point ...
jois
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by jois »

mattheus wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 1:10pm
jois wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 1:08pm I wasn't referering to this incedent, but rather police conduct in general.
That's kinda my point ...
Yes I was answering your point, I am some times very concerned by the polices casual use of violance towards people who pose no threat to them or anyone else

My " crusade" such as it is is mentioning it from time to time in an appropriate Context. Like this one
mattheus
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by mattheus »

slowster wrote: 28 Sep 2022, 8:49pm
mumbojumbo wrote: 28 Sep 2022, 6:38pm https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-s ... e-63063137

This shows how important it is to attend a court session. and listen to all the evidence.A person ,lying on the ground as a result of several uses of a taser ,would seem to offer little threat. [edited by moderator]
The article does not state that the officer struck him on the head. I suggest you read the article more carefully, and also read some of the other news articles on the case, which provide additional detail.
I've reported mumbo's post for that important inaccuracy.

EDIT: thankyou mods.
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