Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
jois
Posts: 334
Joined: 22 Sep 2022, 12:29pm

Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by jois »

pwa wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 10:26am
jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 10:19am
pwa wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 10:16am
Just on that one point, we know the man was on the ground. Do we know that he was unconscious, and therefore defenceless? If he was on the ground and unable to move, he would be defenceless. If he was on the ground and still struggling, with a potential for breaking free and attacking the officers, he would not have seemed defenceless to those whose safety would be compromised. Do we know the details around that, because it is crucial to an understanding of how this played out?

Was there bodycam footage?
I'm not sure that being unconscious is the definition of being unable to defend yourself and therefore " defenceless"
It is one form of being defenceless. Another might be if he had been handcuffed. But if, at the other extreme, he were struggling to break free, and in danger of succeeding, he would still be a threat. I don't know, and I suspect you don't either, where on this spectrum they were at the time the baton was used. Bodycam footage would establish that. I would hope that the jury had access to bodycam footage and based their judgement on more detailed information than we have at the moment.
The charge has been and gone, her defence wasn't if it was necessary rather she was panicked. Her defence didnt seem keen to argue she was doing it as part of her duty rather that she was fragile in a stressful situation
Last edited by jois on 30 Sep 2022, 10:30am, edited 1 time in total.
mattheus
Posts: 5044
Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm
Location: Western Europe

Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by mattheus »

jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 10:19am
pwa wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 10:16am
jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 9:25am

....To some extent she is a victim of circumstances, if the other cop hadn't killed the guy, no mention of this would have occurred and she would be able to carry on hitting defenceless suspects when ever she felt like it with impunity[/b]
Just on that one point, we know the man was on the ground. Do we know that he was unconscious, and therefore defenceless? If he was on the ground and unable to move, he would be defenceless. If he was on the ground and still struggling, with a potential for breaking free and attacking the officers, he would not have seemed defenceless to those whose safety would be compromised. Do we know the details around that, because it is crucial to an understanding of how this played out?

Was there bodycam footage?
I'm not sure that being unconscious is the definition of being unable to defend yourself and therefore " defenceless"
(no, they weren't wearing 'cams.)


This is what the judge said in his sentencing remarks (i.e. Monk had already been found guilty):
After Mr. Atkinson went to the ground* you were not free to simply walk away. You
were still required to restrain and control him and were entitled to use reasonable** force so to do.
*This is after the 3rd Taser application. Atkinson was still raging around after the first two,
**Of course because the kicking was NOT judged reasonable, Monk was found guilty. But the other officer didn't kick him in the head.
jois
Posts: 334
Joined: 22 Sep 2022, 12:29pm

Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by jois »

mattheus wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 10:30am
jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 10:19am
pwa wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 10:16am
Just on that one point, we know the man was on the ground. Do we know that he was unconscious, and therefore defenceless? If he was on the ground and unable to move, he would be defenceless. If he was on the ground and still struggling, with a potential for breaking free and attacking the officers, he would not have seemed defenceless to those whose safety would be compromised. Do we know the details around that, because it is crucial to an understanding of how this played out?

Was there bodycam footage?
I'm not sure that being unconscious is the definition of being unable to defend yourself and therefore " defenceless"
(no, they weren't wearing 'cams.)


This is what the judge said in his sentencing remarks (i.e. Monk had already been found guilty):
After Mr. Atkinson went to the ground* you were not free to simply walk away. You
were still required to restrain and control him and were entitled to use reasonable** force so to do.
*This is after the 3rd Taser application. Atkinson was still raging around after the first two,
**Of course because the kicking was NOT judged reasonable, Monk was found guilty. But the other officer didn't kick him in the head.
She was able to use reasonable force, was the force reasonable in the circumstances is more the issue
pwa
Posts: 17371
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by pwa »

Of course the other thing that needs looking at is why two officers were sent to do a job that would have been more safely done, for everyone concerned, by a team of four. The victim was, it appears, mentally unwell and violent because of it, so the situation needed more hands to implement restraint in a safe way. I wonder if understaffing is a contributory factor. I emphasise that I do not excuse kicking to the head, which cannot be accepted as a restraint method.
Last edited by pwa on 30 Sep 2022, 10:44am, edited 1 time in total.
mattheus
Posts: 5044
Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm
Location: Western Europe

Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by mattheus »

jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 10:31am
She was able to use reasonable force, was the force reasonable in the circumstances is more the issue
Flippin' eck, you're hard to please! What more pressing circumstances do you envisage?

The Russians releasing vicious hornets at a Lord's Test Match?
A super-villian about to release 3,250 nuclear missiles against every major population centre?
Bad guy about to shoot John Wick's dog??
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by pete75 »

pwa wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 11:54pm
You'd have been justified in hitting him on the ground if you had judged that it improved the chances of him not getting up and harming you.
If someone is already on the ground and they try and get up it's easy to stop them, so why lay into them while they're on the floor and cause them serious injury?
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by pete75 »

mattheus wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 10:38am
jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 10:31am
She was able to use reasonable force, was the force reasonable in the circumstances is more the issue
Flippin' eck, you're hard to please! What more pressing circumstances do you envisage?

The Russians releasing vicious hornets at a Lord's Test Match?
A super-villian about to release 3,250 nuclear missiles against every major population centre?
Bad guy about to shoot John Wick's dog??
Well the chap had had been tasered three times and kicked in the head at least twice. Anymore force wasn't reasonable really. Her defence was, to put it bluntly, she acted from cowardice.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
mattheus
Posts: 5044
Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm
Location: Western Europe

Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by mattheus »

pete75 wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 10:50am
mattheus wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 10:38am
jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 10:31am
She was able to use reasonable force, was the force reasonable in the circumstances is more the issue
Flippin' eck, you're hard to please! What more pressing circumstances do you envisage?

The Russians releasing vicious hornets at a Lord's Test Match?
A super-villian about to release 3,250 nuclear missiles against every major population centre?
Bad guy about to shoot John Wick's dog??
Well the chap had had been tasered three times and kicked in the head at least twice. Anymore force wasn't reasonable really. Her defence was, to put it bluntly, she acted from cowardice.
jois says otherwise, take it up with her.

(the rest of your post is entirely subjective - but do remember this:
The taser however appeared to have no effect upon Mr. Atkinson and he continued
to advance and then went back to the door of number 22. Because of your
concerns for whoever was inside number 22 you deployed the taser for a
second time. Again that had no effect upon Mr. Atkinson who then
smashed the glass in the front door of number 22 with his fist.


From the judge's sentencing remarks. Which you've read, I assume?
)
jois
Posts: 334
Joined: 22 Sep 2022, 12:29pm

Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by jois »

mattheus wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 10:57am
pete75 wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 10:50am
mattheus wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 10:38am
Flippin' eck, you're hard to please! What more pressing circumstances do you envisage?

The Russians releasing vicious hornets at a Lord's Test Match?
A super-villian about to release 3,250 nuclear missiles against every major population centre?
Bad guy about to shoot John Wick's dog??
Well the chap had had been tasered three times and kicked in the head at least twice. Anymore force wasn't reasonable really. Her defence was, to put it bluntly, she acted from cowardice.
jois says otherwise, take it up with her.

(the rest of your post is entirely subjective - but do remember this:
The taser however appeared to have no effect upon Mr. Atkinson and he continued
to advance and then went back to the door of number 22. Because of your
concerns for whoever was inside number 22 you deployed the taser for a
second time. Again that had no effect upon Mr. Atkinson who then
smashed the glass in the front door of number 22 with his fist.


From the judge's sentencing remarks. Which you've read, I assume?
)
Reasonable force is quite a large spectrum, they could perhaps have put some handcuffs round his ankles, or stood on his carves or sat on him, there are quite a lot of possibilities before hitting him with a metal stick.
mattheus
Posts: 5044
Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm
Location: Western Europe

Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by mattheus »

jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 12:03pm Reasonable force is quite a large spectrum, they could perhaps have put some handcuffs round his ankles, or stood on his carves or sat on him, there are quite a lot of possibilities before hitting him with a metal stick.
It is indeed! And in this case, after presentation of all the circumstances and evidence, the jury acquited the 2nd officer of ABH.

So here we are.
mattheus
Posts: 5044
Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm
Location: Western Europe

Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by mattheus »

Have we covered everything now?

(Personally I think we've covered the key points three times over, but I may have missed something ... )
jois
Posts: 334
Joined: 22 Sep 2022, 12:29pm

Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by jois »

mattheus wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 12:16pm
jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 12:03pm Reasonable force is quite a large spectrum, they could perhaps have put some handcuffs round his ankles, or stood on his carves or sat on him, there are quite a lot of possibilities before hitting him with a metal stick.
It is indeed! And in this case, after presentation of all the circumstances and evidence, the jury acquited the 2nd officer of ABH.

So here we are.
It wouldn't be the first miscarage of justice. Not guilty doesn't mean innocent, just the standard of proof wasn't reached. And non of that is a bar to exspessing opinions that the verdict wasn't correct
mattheus
Posts: 5044
Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm
Location: Western Europe

Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by mattheus »

jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 12:36pm
mattheus wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 12:16pm
jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 12:03pm Reasonable force is quite a large spectrum, they could perhaps have put some handcuffs round his ankles, or stood on his carves or sat on him, there are quite a lot of possibilities before hitting him with a metal stick.
It is indeed! And in this case, after presentation of all the circumstances and evidence, the jury acquitted the 2nd officer of ABH.

So here we are.
It wouldn't be the first miscarage of justice. Not guilty doesn't mean innocent, just the standard of proof wasn't reached. And non of that is a bar to exspessing opinions that the verdict wasn't correct
I'm sorry if you struggle with our innocent-until-proven-guilty system. Some find it a useful element of our legal system, but you're entitled to disagree. (and it probably prevents a lot of miscarriages of justice. Just IMO.)

As for these opinions being expressed ... well yes, it's a free country. I guess it just irks me that so many posts are criticising behaviour we did't witness, by someone who has stepped up to do something FOR THE PUBLIC that we're too scared to do, and the downright lies that are posted e.g. about baton blows to the head - thank-you again Mods for correcting that. Even though one poster STILL managed to resurrect that myth last night. And posters who have given away a clear bias that the police tend to get away with murder. And posting without reading all the facts - such as the behaviour of Mr Atkinson after two deployments of Taser.
<sigh>
But yes, fortunately it's still a free country ...
jois
Posts: 334
Joined: 22 Sep 2022, 12:29pm

Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by jois »

mattheus wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 1:09pm
jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 12:36pm
mattheus wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 12:16pm
It is indeed! And in this case, after presentation of all the circumstances and evidence, the jury acquitted the 2nd officer of ABH.

So here we are.
It wouldn't be the first miscarage of justice. Not guilty doesn't mean innocent, just the standard of proof wasn't reached. And non of that is a bar to exspessing opinions that the verdict wasn't correct
I'm sorry if you struggle with our innocent-until-proven-guilty system. Some find it a useful element of our legal system, but you're entitled to disagree. (and it probably prevents a lot of miscarriages of justice. Just IMO.)

As for these opinions being expressed ... well yes, it's a free country. I guess it just irks me that so many posts are criticising behaviour we did't witness, by someone who has stepped up to do something FOR THE PUBLIC that we're too scared to do, and the downright lies that are posted e.g. about baton blows to the head - thank-you again Mods for correcting that. Even though one poster STILL managed to resurrect that myth last night. And posters who have given away a clear bias that the police tend to get away with murder. And posting without reading all the facts - such as the behaviour of Mr Atkinson after two deployments of Taser.
<sigh>
But yes, fortunately it's still a free country ...
We don't have a system of people being found innocent by a court jury .not guilty to a legal standard and innocent are markedly different concepts, despite many people claiming they have been found innocent, it never happens, ever
Tangled Metal
Posts: 9505
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by Tangled Metal »

jois wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 5:41pm
Tangled Metal wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 5:36pm I would point out that even a 6 month rookie is not a general member of the population but a trained, if not fully signed off, police officer. I do not know what the training is but all the trained police officers I know had a degree of confidence and presence to them that I always put down to training.

As to restraint I used to know a guy who trained police in unarmed restraint techniques. Also not a John Q public skillset.
[edited by moderator]
[edited by moderator]
I've edited it to clarify point about red zones. JDSK has posted an image showing red zones for baton strikes.

JDSK also posted links to the findings of the court case. What I find interesting was the final taser shot where the male police officer held the current flowing for 33s when 10s is sufficient to cause the muscle spasms that immobilise the recipient. Namely 33s was excessive and beyond that which was needed to immobilise. How does that tie in with the female officer's assertion that she believed he was trying to get up and that's why she struck him? Either the science behind tasers is wrong or she had the inability to identify when a person is immobilised or she struck despite knowing he was immobile. That I don't understand.

Whatever the situation I do not trust her as a front line police officer. I'm a white male so probably not going to be in the position of relying on her judgement as to whether I get hit or not.

One thing I read in a local rag for the area was that they were in a relationship. Setting aside the tabloid nature of that snippet of gossip, could that have had any influence on behaviour? I am certain my judgement won't be completely clinical if my partner was in harm's way.
Post Reply