UK energy

[simonineaston]

Here in the UK, we've loads of fabulous scientists and researchers who really know what they're talking about, do cutting edge work and come up with ground-breaking ideas. Then the politicians get involved and before you know it, the good ideas are sunk without trace and instead, the worst possible option is put in their place...
see too Professor David Nutt

[al_yrpal]

Any yachty who has experienced the Swinge will know its potential.

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/ ... .2019.0490

Al

[jois]

...
I read more and more comments across the Internet asking why we're not developing tidal energy in Britain. With many and high tides and a long coastline, we're well placed to become world leaders in the tech, but our government is typically reluactant to support it.
...

Plus tidal flows around the coast occur at different times in different places so none of the "what do you do at night with solar panels" or "what when the wind doesn't blow".

Ian

Leaving aside the issue of environmental damage and if it's feasable to contribute at any significant level to out energy needs.

It has to make some degree of economic sense. Which is why I asked what the unit price will be ?, Just saying it will drop doesn't answer that unless you also say what it will drop from and to. Or at least a comparative price with other generation methods

[Psamathe]

...
I read more and more comments across the Internet asking why we're not developing tidal energy in Britain. With many and high tides and a long coastline, we're well placed to become world leaders in the tech, but our government is typically reluactant to support it.
...

Plus tidal flows around the coast occur at different times in different places so none of the "what do you do at night with solar panels" or "what when the wind doesn't blow".

Ian

Leaving aside the issue of environmental damage and if it's feasable to contribute at any significant level to out energy needs.

It has to make some degree of economic sense. Which is why I asked what the unit price will be ?, Just saying it will drop doesn't answer that unless you also say what it will drop from and to. Or at least a comparative price with other generation methods

We undertood wind energy without knowing what the price will drop to (and we still don't know what the price will drop to). We undertook solar energy without knowing what the price will drop to (and we still don't know what the price will drop to). We undertook nuclear energy without knowing what the price will increase to (and we still don't know what the price will increase to). etc. So why do we suddenly need to know what the ultimate price will drop to before undertaking development for tidal power?

But we do know the price of continued burning of hydrocarbons (through the impact of climate damage). The price of even tidal is dwarfed to irrelevance by the cost of the climate damage we are doing from burning hydrocrbons.

Ian

[rjb]

We undertook nuclear energy without knowing what the price will increase to (and we still don't know what the price will increase to).
Ian

We do know the price per unit that Hinkley C will generate. Set at 12.5p per unit (rising with inflation).

[Stevek76]

Only for 35 years though, wholesale for the remaining 25.

Though that all brings up a second question about the energy market which is ownership and should ownership of generation be private or public?

[jois]

Plus tidal flows around the coast occur at different times in different places so none of the "what do you do at night with solar panels" or "what when the wind doesn't blow".

Ian

Leaving aside the issue of environmental damage and if it's feasable to contribute at any significant level to out energy needs.

It has to make some degree of economic sense. Which is why I asked what the unit price will be ?, Just saying it will drop doesn't answer that unless you also say what it will drop from and to. Or at least a comparative price with other generation methods

We undertood wind energy without knowing what the price will drop to (and we still don't know what the price will drop to). We undertook solar energy without knowing what the price will drop to (and we still don't know what the price will drop to). We undertook nuclear energy without knowing what the price will increase to (and we still don't know what the price will increase to). etc. So why do we suddenly need to know what the ultimate price will drop to before undertaking development for tidal power?

But we do know the price of continued burning of hydrocarbons (through the impact of climate damage). The price of even tidal is dwarfed to irrelevance by the cost of the climate damage we are doing from burning hydrocrbons.

Ian

Be cause the whole scheme seem to depend on spending a great deal of money with it seem no idea if it makes any economic sense at all. Stick some more windmills up at least they are a known quantity at this stage

To be clear much of out current economic woes are because an affordable energy sources has become slightly less affordable,

Plumping for something that has no known level of affordability whist also spending ( borrowing) to do so seems somewhat misguided

[Psamathe]

...
To be clear much of out current economic woes are because an affordable energy sources has become slightly less affordable,
...

Yet yesterday you were proposing increasing our extraction and use of oil and gas (the energy source that has become less affordable).

... Plumping for something that has no known level of affordability whist also spending ( borrowing) to do so seems somewhat misguided

Tidal generation development is cheap (in the UK so far it's all been done using private capital, no real Gov. interest). If we as a species are ever to progress we need to undertake development without knowing the ultimate cost. The more widespread a generation method becomes, the more installations so prices drop - we've seen this again and again and there is no reason to assume this wont be the same for tidal.

My understanding is the current generation cost per mW/h is £413. Currently the largest tidal turbine is (2MW) under £200 / MWh. Of course the current wholesale price is probably high due to the hydrocarbon pric increases. But the current wholesale is based on mature technology where the price has dropped whereas the tidal turbine is early technology and not yet had price dropps through further development and scale.

e.g. Why build any cycle path because people are getting from A to B without it and there is no proof as to how many people will ultimately use the path.

e.g. why spend money developing a Covid vaccine as the development might fail and even if it doesn't we don't know how much it will cost to produce.

We need a diversity in our generation technology (so different generation methods can fill in for others e.g. long spells of little wind allows solar and tidal to supplement power.

Ian

[jois]

...
To be clear much of out current economic woes are because an affordable energy sources has become slightly less affordable,
...

Yet yesterday you were proposing increasing our extraction and use of oil and gas (the energy source that has become less affordable).

... Plumping for something that has no known level of affordability whist also spending ( borrowing) to do so seems somewhat misguided

Tidal generation development is cheap (in the UK so far it's all been done using private capital, no real Gov. interest). If we as a species are ever to progress we need to undertake development without knowing the ultimate cost. The more widespread a generation method becomes, the more installations so prices drop - we've seen this again and again and there is no reason to assume this wont be the same for tidal.

My understanding is the current generation cost per mW/h is £413. Currently the largest tidal turbine is (2MW) under £200 / MWh. Of course the current wholesale price is probably high due to the hydrocarbon pric increases. But the current wholesale is based on mature technology where the price has dropped whereas the tidal turbine is early technology and not yet had price dropps through further development and scale.

e.g. Why build any cycle path because people are getting from A to B without it and there is no proof as to how many people will ultimately use the path.

e.g. why spend money developing a Covid vaccine as the development might fail and even if it doesn't we don't know how much it will cost to produce.

We need a diversity in our generation technology (so different generation methods can fill in for others e.g. long spells of little wind allows solar and tidal to supplement power.

Ian

I was and coal, it doesn't have to be unaffordable if we buy it from ourselves, shortage of gas higher prices, turn the fracking up, cheap gas

This problem isn't going away any time soon, Putin is only part of the problem, there was an upward trend long before he kicked off, it won't go down much if at all when he packs it in.

Our society and our standard of living is based on availability of cheap energy. Take that away and suddenly everyone's up in arms that they cant afford to have their house heated to semi tropical and the price of everything else rising accordingly.

Any solution need to be soon and affordable or the whole edifice is likely to calapse

[Psamathe]

...
To be clear much of out current economic woes are because an affordable energy sources has become slightly less affordable,
...

Yet yesterday you were proposing increasing our extraction and use of oil and gas (the energy source that has become less affordable).

... Plumping for something that has no known level of affordability whist also spending ( borrowing) to do so seems somewhat misguided

Tidal generation development is cheap (in the UK so far it's all been done using private capital, no real Gov. interest). If we as a species are ever to progress we need to undertake development without knowing the ultimate cost. The more widespread a generation method becomes, the more installations so prices drop - we've seen this again and again and there is no reason to assume this wont be the same for tidal.

My understanding is the current generation cost per mW/h is £413. Currently the largest tidal turbine is (2MW) under £200 / MWh. Of course the current wholesale price is probably high due to the hydrocarbon pric increases. But the current wholesale is based on mature technology where the price has dropped whereas the tidal turbine is early technology and not yet had price dropps through further development and scale.

e.g. Why build any cycle path because people are getting from A to B without it and there is no proof as to how many people will ultimately use the path.

e.g. why spend money developing a Covid vaccine as the development might fail and even if it doesn't we don't know how much it will cost to produce.

We need a diversity in our generation technology (so different generation methods can fill in for others e.g. long spells of little wind allows solar and tidal to supplement power.

Ian

I was and coal, it doesn't have to be unaffordable if we buy it from ourselves, shortage of gas higher prices, turn the fracking up, cheap gas

This problem isn't going away any time soon, Putin is only part of the problem, there was an upward trend long before he kicked off, it won't go down much if at all when he packs it in.

Our society and our standard of living is based on availability of cheap energy. Take that away and suddenly everyone's up in arms that they cant afford to have their house heated to semi tropical and the price of everything else rising accordingly.

Any solution need to be soon and affordable or the whole edifice is likely to calapse

In the global market, amount of gas UK could extract from fracking would be trivial. Gas prices are set on the international market so domestically produced gas will be sold at the going rate and wont be cheap because it's extracted from UK (and quantities nowhere near enough to impact supply to reduce prices). We will be buying it from commercial companies not from "ourselves".

Fastest way to redce energy costs is to use less e.g. insulate houses and ensure new builds are zero carbon. But Conservative Gov. seems to dislike that idea.

Ian

[jois]

Yet yesterday you were proposing increasing our extraction and use of oil and gas (the energy source that has become less affordable).


Tidal generation development is cheap (in the UK so far it's all been done using private capital, no real Gov. interest). If we as a species are ever to progress we need to undertake development without knowing the ultimate cost. The more widespread a generation method becomes, the more installations so prices drop - we've seen this again and again and there is no reason to assume this wont be the same for tidal.

My understanding is the current generation cost per mW/h is £413. Currently the largest tidal turbine is (2MW) under £200 / MWh. Of course the current wholesale price is probably high due to the hydrocarbon pric increases. But the current wholesale is based on mature technology where the price has dropped whereas the tidal turbine is early technology and not yet had price dropps through further development and scale.

e.g. Why build any cycle path because people are getting from A to B without it and there is no proof as to how many people will ultimately use the path.

e.g. why spend money developing a Covid vaccine as the development might fail and even if it doesn't we don't know how much it will cost to produce.

We need a diversity in our generation technology (so different generation methods can fill in for others e.g. long spells of little wind allows solar and tidal to supplement power.

Ian

I was and coal, it doesn't have to be unaffordable if we buy it from ourselves, shortage of gas higher prices, turn the fracking up, cheap gas

This problem isn't going away any time soon, Putin is only part of the problem, there was an upward trend long before he kicked off, it won't go down much if at all when he packs it in.

Our society and our standard of living is based on availability of cheap energy. Take that away and suddenly everyone's up in arms that they cant afford to have their house heated to semi tropical and the price of everything else rising accordingly.

Any solution need to be soon and affordable or the whole edifice is likely to calapse

In the global market, amount of gas UK could extract from fracking would be trivial. Gas prices are set on the international market so domestically produced gas will be sold at the going rate and wont be cheap because it's extracted from UK (and quantities nowhere near enough to impact supply to reduce prices). We will be buying it from commercial companies not from "ourselves".

Fastest way to redce energy costs is to use less e.g. insulate houses and ensure new builds are zero carbon. But Conservative Gov. seems to dislike that idea.

Ian

Gas prices are indeed set on the market and if you buy from that market that's what you pay. There is no reason at all the UK couldn't sell its own gas to its subjects at what ever price it wants

Do you think the Saudis pay the same for oil and gas as the rest of the world ?

[Psamathe]

I was and coal, it doesn't have to be unaffordable if we buy it from ourselves, shortage of gas higher prices, turn the fracking up, cheap gas

This problem isn't going away any time soon, Putin is only part of the problem, there was an upward trend long before he kicked off, it won't go down much if at all when he packs it in.

Our society and our standard of living is based on availability of cheap energy. Take that away and suddenly everyone's up in arms that they cant afford to have their house heated to semi tropical and the price of everything else rising accordingly.

Any solution need to be soon and affordable or the whole edifice is likely to calapse

In the global market, amount of gas UK could extract from fracking would be trivial. Gas prices are set on the international market so domestically produced gas will be sold at the going rate and wont be cheap because it's extracted from UK (and quantities nowhere near enough to impact supply to reduce prices). We will be buying it from commercial companies not from "ourselves".

Fastest way to redce energy costs is to use less e.g. insulate houses and ensure new builds are zero carbon. But Conservative Gov. seems to dislike that idea.

Ian

Gas prices are indeed set on the market and if you buy from that market that's what you pay. There is no reason at all the UK couldn't sell its own gas to its subjects at what ever price it wants

Do you think the Saudis pay the same for oil and gas as the rest of the world ?

The gas will be extracted by commercial companies whose only interest is the benefit of their shareholders, profit (it's called Capitalism). What justification could they give their shareholder selling to UK commercial generators (also making profits) at a discount?

The fracking companies are not social enterprises or "not for profit" companies.

Ian

[jois]

In the global market, amount of gas UK could extract from fracking would be trivial. Gas prices are set on the international market so domestically produced gas will be sold at the going rate and wont be cheap because it's extracted from UK (and quantities nowhere near enough to impact supply to reduce prices). We will be buying it from commercial companies not from "ourselves".

Fastest way to redce energy costs is to use less e.g. insulate houses and ensure new builds are zero carbon. But Conservative Gov. seems to dislike that idea.

Ian

Gas prices are indeed set on the market and if you buy from that market that's what you pay. There is no reason at all the UK couldn't sell its own gas to its subjects at what ever price it wants

Do you think the Saudis pay the same for oil and gas as the rest of the world ?

The gas will be extracted by commercial companies whose only interest is the benefit of their shareholders, profit (it's called Capitalism). What justification could they give their shareholder selling to UK commercial generators (also making profits) at a discount?

The fracking companies are not social enterprises or "not for profit" companies.

Ian

I'm not really interested in their share holders views just that it is quite possible by one means or another to sell UK gas to UK consumers at a rate below the market value. Which you said was not possible

[roubaixtuesday]

Fracking is another dead end; even the fracking companies don't think it will make a material difference to UK energy:

Fracking in the UK will be impossible at any meaningful scale and will not help with the energy price crisis, the founder of the UK’s first fracking company has warned.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... -cuadrilla

And more widely, a response to a crisis in supply of fossil fuels by increasing our reliance on fossil fuels which are themselves by definition a finite resource, makes no strategic sense.

[Edit: and that's without even mentioning climate change]

[jois]

Fracking is another dead end; even the fracking companies don't think it will make a material difference to UK energy:

Fracking in the UK will be impossible at any meaningful scale and will not help with the energy price crisis, the founder of the UK’s first fracking company has warned.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... -cuadrilla

And more widely, a response to a crisis in supply of fossil fuels by increasing our reliance on fossil fuels which are themselves by definition a finite resource, makes no strategic sense.

[Edit: and that's without even mentioning climate change]

A contradiction there

It cant both be not a meaningful contribution and increase our dependence on fossil fuels. It has to be one or the other.

It's worth noting that much of the strategy for personal transport and energy storage of renewables is also substantially dependent on a finite resource, which seems to be more finite than fossil fuels