UK energy

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Carlton green
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Re: UK energy

Post by Carlton green »

Nearholmer wrote: 18 Oct 2022, 8:51am
However the lagoon must be effectively drained at low tide as otherwise energy cannot be gained on the fill cycle]
Presumably, the lagoon can be arranged to consist of a series of tanks, rather than just a single huge one, with an “uphill” section, on most days filled either by land-drainage or pumping, that is above the typical high-tide level, which can be kept “in hand” while fully draining the lower section to accommodate the next typical tide.
That segmentation is an interesting concept that could be applied in multiple ways.

The cost of the land in-land of the coast would be large and there are many other issues too. The best inter tidal range that two similar sized adjacent (built in sea) pools working together could manage would be half the external tidal range. Building significantly tall bunds in the sea, effectively four wall reservoirs, would be a challenge and it hasn’t been done on land in places where a much greater generating head differential is available. Such segmentation could potentially locally load level but the highest energy extracting use of the lagoons would be for them both to be working directly to the adjacent sea. As tide times vary around the UK then there’s an argument for distant multiple lagoons or sites being the most efficient way forward.

As ever, what is technically possible might not be the best use of time, money and (other) resources.
Last edited by Carlton green on 18 Oct 2022, 9:27am, edited 1 time in total.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
roubaixtuesday
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Re: UK energy

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Nearholmer wrote: 18 Oct 2022, 9:06am
It's actually just 86 MW according to Wiki, operating at 29m head. The 300 is GWhr/year, not MW.
Ah, misremembered, sorry.

Yes, I wasn’t seriously suggesting a major Severn Scheme, although my gut feel was that Ironbridge was a lot higher than 40m …… it’s all pretty steep round there so looks higher, whereas the Shannon Basin looks pancake flat!
Yeah, the only way to understand this is to look at the numbers.

The OS app is great for more than just cycling!
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simonineaston
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Re: UK energy

Post by simonineaston »

Talking (or typing...) about 'UK energy', does anyone know anything the way the domestic energy providers are engaging - or not - with the roll-out of street side charging points for evs? I read today that Bristol city council are planning something for Jan 23. With their city centre ban on dirty cars now effective, you'd have thought they'd have more sense of urgency than that... but I expect they just don't have the money.
from council website
from council website
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Biospace
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Re: UK energy

Post by Biospace »

simonineaston wrote: 18 Oct 2022, 12:51pm With their city centre ban on dirty cars now effective
EVs are allowed into city centres, I think :shock:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... tests-show

Nick Molden, at Emissions Analytics, the leading independent emissions testing company that did the research. “Tailpipes are now so clean for pollutants that, if you were starting out afresh, you wouldn’t even bother regulating them.”
tyre emissions.jpeg
Biospace
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Re: UK energy

Post by Biospace »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 18 Oct 2022, 7:09amYou suggested that river hydro had the same potential as a nuclear power plant.

I'm not suggesting 20% of our supply can ever be river hydro, but there's going to be a lot more than at present. Even if the extra capacity will replace just one nuclear plant, is anyone arguing that's a bad thing?

viewtopic.php?p=1727346&hilit=Biospace#p1727346

At the moment, output from our nuclear power stations averages 884MW (442MW per reactor), two reactors are out of action, Hartlepool R1 is being refuelled and Heysham 1 R2 is being repaired.

In comparison, our river hydro output is showing 870MW at the moment, it's slowly climbing as more plants are connected to the grid. Gridwatch suggests the figure would be higher, but government schemes mean producers artificially reduce output to be just under thresholds.

roubaixtuesday wrote: 18 Oct 2022, 7:09am
Tiny, near irrelevant power sources do not make grids more resilient.

Are you suggesting that relevance depends on combined output? Or are there factors other than size which are relevant?
Last edited by Biospace on 18 Oct 2022, 6:29pm, edited 1 time in total.
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simonineaston
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Re: UK energy

Post by simonineaston »

EVs are allowed into city centres, I think...
No need for uncertainty - you're right. The ban is aimed at older diesels. I was suggesting that there will be folks who live, or wish to travel through, the clean air zone and so, their travel would be made easier the more readily they can charge the batteries of electric vehicles. As an aside, business in cargo cycles appears to be booming here :-)
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Biospace
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Re: UK energy

Post by Biospace »

simonineaston wrote: 18 Oct 2022, 6:28pm
EVs are allowed into city centres, I think...
No need for uncertainty - you're right. The ban is aimed at older diesels. I was suggesting that there will be folks who live, or wish to travel through, the clean air zone and so, their travel would be made easier the more readily they can charge the batteries of electric vehicles. As an aside, business in cargo cycles appears to be booming here :-)

Yes, I just didn't wish the EV are zero emission, petrol cars are filthy myth to be given any more legs than it already has :wink: . If forced on to a busy urban road, I'd far prefer to be breathing the air if every vehicle was a modern-ish Yaris or similar than a stream of Teslas or hybrid 4x4s running on their batteries.

Quite agree with the infrastructure needing to get a move on. There won't be as much strain on the grid as many assume as we go electric, although older cabling near point of use may need replacing (both under street/pavements and in houses) in quite a few places.
Biospace
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Re: UK energy

Post by Biospace »

Nearholmer wrote: 18 Oct 2022, 8:07am Anyone interested in relatively low-head river-based hydro might want to read-up on the Shannon Scheme in Ireland. It was created in the 1920/30s, and involved an absolutely massive amount of dirt-shifting and concrete-laying to produce a c300MW station, which for a brief period supplied all of the electricity for the country.

One could probably do the same with The Severn, but whether the environmental turmoil involved would be tolerated these days, I rather doubt.
As mentioned a few posts above, viewtopic.php?p=1730487#p1730487,
It's worth reminding ourselves that the idea of 'lagoons' tied to South Wales are but a shadow of what has been proposed since 1849, then 1925 and many times since. On almost every occasion, plans were rejected on the grounds that cheaper energy was available (from fossil fuels), most recently the environmentalists caused the problem.

Given the 15GW (peak) from just one estuary, I think there should be a more generalised national debate as to how we do provide our energy. Without much ado, the threat of environmentalist action and strong words from the RSPB closed down the project in 2007. Which I regard as pretty poor on the govt's behalf, given the mess we today find ourselves in.

How many onshore wind turbines are people prepared to accept in our hills, should all modern factory and other large roofs be covered in PV panels, how many know just how much nuclear is costing and are we anticipating most storage to be on a domestic level (house batteries, V2G)?

https://peterhain.uk/campaigns/severn-barrage/
roubaixtuesday
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Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: UK energy

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Biospace wrote: 18 Oct 2022, 7:04pm
Nearholmer wrote: 18 Oct 2022, 8:07am Anyone interested in relatively low-head river-based hydro might want to read-up on the Shannon Scheme in Ireland. It was created in the 1920/30s, and involved an absolutely massive amount of dirt-shifting and concrete-laying to produce a c300MW station, which for a brief period supplied all of the electricity for the country.

One could probably do the same with The Severn, but whether the environmental turmoil involved would be tolerated these days, I rather doubt.
As mentioned a few posts above, viewtopic.php?p=1730487#p1730487,
It's worth reminding ourselves that the idea of 'lagoons' tied to South Wales are but a shadow of what has been proposed since 1849, then 1925 and many times since. On almost every occasion, plans were rejected on the grounds that cheaper energy was available (from fossil fuels), most recently the environmentalists caused the problem.

Given the 15GW (peak) from just one estuary, I think there should be a more generalised national debate as to how we do provide our energy. Without much ado, the threat of environmentalist action and strong words from the RSPB closed down the project in 2007. Which I regard as pretty poor on the govt's behalf, given the mess we today find ourselves in.

How many onshore wind turbines are people prepared to accept in our hills, should all modern factory and other large roofs be covered in PV panels, how many know just how much nuclear is costing and are we anticipating most storage to be on a domestic level (house batteries, V2G)?

https://peterhain.uk/campaigns/severn-barrage/
Mystery to me why V2G isn't being pursued, there doesn't seem to be any way to get this at the moment. I can see little benefit to solar without storage on that sort of scale, and v2g offers that storage essentially for free as well as load balancing.

I expect I've missed something.
Carlton green
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Re: UK energy

Post by Carlton green »

V2G, vehicle to grid. What’s possible in theory might be difficult to do in practice. If I had an electric car then I’d want to keep the tank full or rather batteries fully charged and ready for what ever journey I might want to undertake. Then there’s the charge, discharge and conversion efficiency to consider plus its control by ‘call’ from the Grid.

What’s of more interest to me is whether I could buy-in off peak and surplus electricity to store in stand alone batteries and whether that produces a cost benefit to me over simply buying power at the moment of need. I think that if the batteries, converters and off peak / surplus power were reasonably priced then quite a few people would wonder about making such a power storage purchase. Certainly such a system should be a lot more affordable than an electric car.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Nearholmer
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Joined: 26 Mar 2022, 7:13am

Re: UK energy

Post by Nearholmer »

whether I could buy in off peak and surplus electricity to store in stand alone batteries
No reason why you couldn’t use ‘night rate’ electricity to charge cells, or pump water to the top of a tall tower, or WHY, but there seems to be a problem finding new ‘night rate’ tariffs at the moment.

Since my current ‘economy seven’ tariff expires in March 2024, I have a growing interest in all this, because if there is nothing but flat rate available then, bills will absolutely skyrocket, multiply five fold or more.

Usually, the night rate is about a third of the day rate, but usually the day rate on such a divided tariff is c30% higher than ordinary flat rate, which figures may allow you to have a wild stab in the dark at payback time for filling a shed with cells (long, would be my guess, ‘cos cells aren’t cheap).
Biospace
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Re: UK energy

Post by Biospace »

With a Smart Grid, price will be adjusted in real time for each section of the day and night rather than having fixed two or three tier systems like Economy 7 or 10. I imagine devices like freezers, washing machines, cars, your home battery and electrical heating will be connected to the Net and their demands controlled by it.

It's likely you will use your computer's electricity app to answer a series of questions relating to your priorities, your diary of upcoming events may be linked to help calculate energy needed for the car. Then your electricity will be juggled between vehicle, house battery storage and grid and you'll be informed of the costs.

To encourage its use, pricing is likely to be favourable to the consumer. On a sunny, windy Spring or summer day, it's possible that mid-morning and mid-afternoon prices will dip towards zero once Grid storage has been topped up. Prices are likely to be highest, both ways, at the early evening peak during late autumn and winter.

There will be an interesting and complex juggling act to ensure those without the resources to purchase storage, most likely to be those with least spare money, are not penalised inappropriately. One side of the argument will be that those with large amounts of storage are spending their money on infrastructure which reduces everyone's energy cost, the other that basic utilities such as power to the home should not further amplify the rich-poor divide, both energy-wise and beyond.
ANTONISH
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Re: UK energy

Post by ANTONISH »

Nearholmer wrote: 18 Oct 2022, 9:31pm
Since my current ‘economy seven’ tariff expires in March 2024, I have a growing interest in all this, because if there is nothing but flat rate available then, bills will absolutely skyrocket, multiply five fold or more.

Usually, the night rate is about a third of the day rate, but usually the day rate on such a divided tariff is c30% higher than ordinary flat rate, which figures may allow you to have a wild stab in the dark at payback time for filling a shed with cells (long, would be my guess, ‘cos cells aren’t cheap).
My latest tarrif is 38.715p (day) , 23.15p (night) - I've never known the night tarrif to be one third of the day rate.
Nearholmer
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Re: UK energy

Post by Nearholmer »

The one I’ve currently got is. It’s an EDF one. My mother had another, now expired EDF one ditto.

I won’t quote the prices for fear of provoking widespread jealousy - I struck very lucky.
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853
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Re: UK energy

Post by 853 »

ANTONISH wrote: 19 Oct 2022, 5:36pm My latest tarrif is 38.715p (day) , 23.15p (night) - I've never known the night tarrif to be one third of the day rate.
Here are my current rates; the night rate is almost a quarter that of the day rate. My fixed deal finished earlier in the year, and these are the figures for this area on the price cap

I have never seen the night rate as small a percentage as this before, (or should that be I've never seen the day rate as large a percentage as this). Strangely, my night rate - day rate ration has fluctuated considerably over the years from around 0.35:1.00 to around 0.50:1.00

Not happy about the standing charge; as a low user it's a significant percentage of my total bill.
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