UK energy

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Psamathe
Posts: 17650
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: UK energy

Post by Psamathe »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 6:26pm
jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 6:24pm
roubaixtuesday wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 5:59pm

Oh great, an internet conspiracy theorist. Just what we need.
Do you think they ar scalable, I've already ran through the lithium issues with you, that aside there is a need for billions in infrastructure, public and private of which their is little sign and little hope in the current eccomic climate and that's just this country, third world countries have exactly no chance
I'm not discussing with a conspiracy theorist, thanks all the same.
+1
It's all getting a bit daft. One minute "we are all going to boil to death in our own juices", then "oil is a renewable energy source,".

I think I'll stop wasting my time as well.

Ian
jois
Posts: 334
Joined: 22 Sep 2022, 12:29pm

Re: UK energy

Post by jois »

Psamathe wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 7:17pm
jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 5:50pm
Psamathe wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 5:32pm
I was talking about storage technology for "when the Sun does not shine" or "when the wind does not blow".

Ian
If your going to do pumped hydro you need giants electric dams, we are a bit short of those or places to put them
It's one of a number of options that works (and has been working for many years).

Ian
It does on small scales, but at the point you need to run the entire country for say a couple of weeks the dams get very big and very numourous
jois
Posts: 334
Joined: 22 Sep 2022, 12:29pm

Re: UK energy

Post by jois »

Psamathe wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 7:21pm
roubaixtuesday wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 6:26pm
jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 6:24pm

Do you think they ar scalable, I've already ran through the lithium issues with you, that aside there is a need for billions in infrastructure, public and private of which their is little sign and little hope in the current eccomic climate and that's just this country, third world countries have exactly no chance
I'm not discussing with a conspiracy theorist, thanks all the same.
+1
It's all getting a bit daft. One minute "we are all going to boil to death in our own juices", then "oil is a renewable energy source,".

I think I'll stop wasting my time as well.

Ian
Oil is renewable, it just takes a few hundred million years to do so

Lithium however is not, it comes mostly from the big bang and as probably won't happen again we are stuck with what we have
roubaixtuesday
Posts: 5815
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: UK energy

Post by roubaixtuesday »

jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 7:29pm
Oil is renewable, it just takes a few hundred million years to do so
When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’

’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’

’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all
jois
Posts: 334
Joined: 22 Sep 2022, 12:29pm

Re: UK energy

Post by jois »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 7:33pm
jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 7:29pm
Oil is renewable, it just takes a few hundred million years to do so
When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’

’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’

’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all
Well what's the key definition of renewable?

It seems it's you that's inventing your own defintions

Added to which you can make it out of vegetables, so very renewable
wirral_cyclist
Posts: 1024
Joined: 17 May 2010, 9:25pm
Location: Wirral Merseyside

Re: UK energy

Post by wirral_cyclist »

jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 6:27pm
roubaixtuesday wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 6:26pm
jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 6:24pm

Do you think they ar scalable, I've already ran through the lithium issues with you, that aside there is a need for billions in infrastructure, public and private of which their is little sign and little hope in the current eccomic climate and that's just this country, third world countries have exactly no chance
I'm not discussing with a conspiracy theorist, thanks all the same.
Just denigrate me as I disagree, very liberal and mature
You are a troll, and sadly seemingly a familiar one (but aren't all trolls), saying that I can't quite place you, would you be so kind and reveal your former forum name and which forum (here/YACF/Cyclechat) Thanks.
Carlton green
Posts: 3645
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: UK energy

Post by Carlton green »

It’s a bit disappointing to see threads on serious subjects descent into chaos and name calling.

There are no easy answers for the UK energy crisis and there will be no universal answers either. Currently the technology just isn’t there at the level to which we need it to be and particularly so in terms of mass energy storage. Of course there are things out there that work but being able to scale them up within the UK or even internationally is another matter.

Battery technology using cheap and widely available materials just isn’t happening and it is the key to how we use power in transport, industry, commerce and domestic life. Modern Nuclear Power has the potential to be great but the devil is in the detail, wind power has become very successful as has solar too. Wave and tidal stream haven’t really made much progress compared to wind and solar.

As a country we have become used to using power on demand and maybe that has to change. Domestically that might mean heating using storage heaters of several days capacity and using the washing machine when the wind is blowing or the sun is shining. So adopting the attitude of using the power when available rather than on demand. Of course that works less well for transport, industry and commerce but much is still possible and has previously been used. Factories have long worked through the night when cheap power was available (that would be wind and nuclear generated now) and in the past people worked with what natural light they had and stopped when the light failed.

On transport the bicycle / cycle is one of the obvious but will be unused answers. It’s amazing what the bike has to offer in terms of keeping the work-force and general population mobile. Like other things it’s not a universal answer, but rather just one part of the solution ‘jig-saw’. The solution lies in diversity and adaption of life to suit the available resources.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Psamathe
Posts: 17650
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: UK energy

Post by Psamathe »

Carlton green wrote: 1 Oct 2022, 11:06am It’s a bit disappointing to see threads on serious subjects descent into chaos and name calling.

There are no easy answers for the UK energy crisis and there will be no universal answers either. Currently the technology just isn’t there at the level to which we need it to be and particularly so in terms of mass energy storage. Of course there are things out there that work but being able to scale them up within the UK or even internationally is another matter.

Battery technology using cheap and widely available materials just isn’t happening and it is the key to how we use power in transport, industry, commerce and domestic life. Modern Nuclear Power has the potential to be great but the devil is in the detail, wind power has become very successful as has solar too. Wave and tidal stream haven’t really made much progress compared to wind and solar.

As a country we have become used to using power on demand and maybe that has to change. Domestically that might mean heating using storage heaters of several days capacity and using the washing machine when the wind is blowing or the sun is shining. So adopting the attitude of using the power when available rather than on demand. Of course that works less well for transport, industry and commerce but much is still possible and has previously been used. Factories have long worked through the night when cheap power was available (that would be wind and nuclear generated now) and in the past people worked with what natural light they had and stopped when the light failed.

On transport the bicycle / cycle is one of the obvious but will be unused answers. It’s amazing what the bike has to offer in terms of keeping the work-force and general population mobile. Like other things it’s not a universal answer, but rather just one part of the solution ‘jig-saw’. The solution lies in diversity and adaption of life to suit the available resources.
A lot there and I (mostly) agree but also, in my opinion, most of the issues related to political failures.

For example battery/storage technology is more a question of small development and the technology is there and it's easily within our grasp, just a bit of engineering rather than fundamental science. Some investment would speed things.

Similarly with transport. I'm guessing that a fair amount of travel in the UK is commuting into work yet following the pandemic it is the Government that has been the main push for people to commute daily back into their offices.

Government seems very keen on nuclear yet the timescales for a new power station are so long and so uncertain we will have resolved many issues before it helps much.

Reducing consumption can make a very significant contribution yet Government has been shutting down schemes to insulate houses and the few schemes they do have are not much help and very limited.

And everybody here knows how Government is failing to encourage switching from motor vehicle to human power.

Seems to me that the scientists have provided what we need, engineers are desperate and still waiting for investment to put the tools the scientists have come-up with into the real world and politicians are reverting to more hydrocarbons and talking about profit.

Ian
Carlton green
Posts: 3645
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: UK energy

Post by Carlton green »

A lot there and I (mostly) agree but also, in my opinion, most of the issues related to political failures.
As far as I can see the biggest stumbling block by far has been down to political failure and, though not equally, I blame both sides of the house for that. The current lot in power in the UK are certainly pointing in the wrong direction and the current international crisis could very easily have been foreseen - for many previous winters Putin has been using energy supply as a lever on the West.

Had the decisions to proceed with modern Nuclear been made a decade or two back then we wouldn’t be as badly off for power as we are now. The environmental issues are another discussion … but the alternative fossil fuel use is arguably more of an issue.

With regard to mass transportation of people and goods we need to return, in part, to earlier principles. Local employment, local services, local food supplies and local manufacture. Centralisation might have efficiency benefits but realisation of them is dependant upon cheap and easy transportation and that is dependant upon cheap and plentiful energy …
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
jois
Posts: 334
Joined: 22 Sep 2022, 12:29pm

Re: UK energy

Post by jois »

Carlton green wrote: 1 Oct 2022, 11:06am It’s a bit disappointing to see threads on serious subjects descent into chaos and name calling.

There are no easy answers for the UK energy crisis and there will be no universal answers either. Currently the technology just isn’t there at the level to which we need it to be and particularly so in terms of mass energy storage. Of course there are things out there that work but being able to scale them up within the UK or even internationally is another matter.

Battery technology using cheap and widely available materials just isn’t happening and it is the key to how we use power in transport, industry, commerce and domestic life. Modern Nuclear Power has the potential to be great but the devil is in the detail, wind power has become very successful as has solar too. Wave and tidal stream haven’t really made much progress compared to wind and solar.

As a country we have become used to using power on demand and maybe that has to change. Domestically that might mean heating using storage heaters of several days capacity and using the washing machine when the wind is blowing or the sun is shining. So adopting the attitude of using the power when available rather than on demand. Of course that works less well for transport, industry and commerce but much is still possible and has previously been used. Factories have long worked through the night when cheap power was available (that would be wind and nuclear generated now) and in the past people worked with what natural light they had and stopped when the light failed.

On transport the bicycle / cycle is one of the obvious but will be unused answers. It’s amazing what the bike has to offer in terms of keeping the work-force and general population mobile. Like other things it’s not a universal answer, but rather just one part of the solution ‘jig-saw’. The solution lies in diversity and adaption of life to suit the available resources.
Or getting rid of the washing machine all together.

I don't doubt the sincerity of the people calling for social change, I just don't think they have thought through the social change, financial implications or personal sacrifices that might involve.

Generaly they are keen on others giving up things they don't particularly value, but a lot less keen to inconvincing themselves to cut co2 immissions.

I've had this conversation several times in real time, when people lecture me on cutting green house -as

And I ask them to put my low carbon life style against theirs and ask them why they don't do the same, they generaly seem flabbergasted that they might have to return to the 1950s, it hasn't it seems occurred to them.

In short I have no car, I don't use taxis, busses trains ferries or airports, I don't have an electric bike, I walk or cycle everywhere. If it's to far or two cold/ wet to do that I don't go.

I don't have a TV, a freezer a washing machine, I hand wash in Luke warm water and let them dry.

I never ever turn the central heating on, I use a candle for both heat and light, if that's not warm enough I put a coat on, I shower in cold water.

I won't buy anything new at all, clothes shoes bicycle tyres furniture,everything is up cycled as they say. And ussualy free

As I'm not what you could call poor, people generaly think I'm mad, but my energy bills are 5 pounds a week, so....

If people cant match me by making their own sacrifices to 21st century living, I'm not that inclined to think they are serious,

And don't get me started on the ones who think they are saving the planet by firing up the wood stove
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: UK energy

Post by Jdsk »

Carlton Green, Ian: thanks for those constructive contributions.

I agree that the big problems are now political. A lot needs to change and consistent small nudges will help many who are on the brink of decisions to make them.

Most of the energy-related technology that's needed is already out there somewhere.

And I'd add some national economic aspects. The UK has enormous competitive advantage in many parts of this sector: superb technological education and R & D capacity and a large installed base for eg wind power. And needs economic growth that doesn't depend on Trussonomics. This is a great opportunity.

Jonathan
Carlton green
Posts: 3645
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: UK energy

Post by Carlton green »

You are a troll, and sadly seemingly a familiar one (but aren't all trolls), saying that I can't quite place you, would you be so kind and reveal your former forum name and which forum (here/YACF/Cyclechat) Thanks.
With on-line discussion there often are Trolls, and even face to face some people delight in winding others up, that’s just how things are. Of course Trolls are happiest when people listen to them …
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Carlton green
Posts: 3645
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: UK energy

Post by Carlton green »

Jdsk wrote: 1 Oct 2022, 2:44pm
I agree that the big problems are now political. A lot needs to change and consistent small nudges will help many who are on the brink of decisions to make them.

Most of the energy-related technology that's needed is already out there somewhere.

And I'd add some national economic aspects. The UK has enormous competitive advantage in many parts of this sector: superb technological education and R & D capacity and a large installed base for eg wind power.

Jonathan
Renewable power generation has been being developed for the last fifty years, it’s come a long way in that time. However crucial bits are still missing and hence the considerable fallback onto fossil fuels.

Power storage is the big issue and the technology isn’t really there yet, let me know when electric cars become cheaper than todays fossil fuelled ones. We also fail to make best use of small storage capacity solutions; as in cumulative marginal gains when added together many small capacity solutions actually could make a useful difference. Some years back a friend told me of their experience in Nuclear France, electricity was cheap and heating (a big user of power in the home) was of the night storage type.

I have for long thought that we could learn a lot from the Isle of Eigg, there they have learnt the value of multiple power sources and the merit of working with what power you have available to you at any point in time: http://isleofeigg.org/eigg-electric/
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: UK energy

Post by Jdsk »

Carlton green wrote: 1 Oct 2022, 4:08pm
Jdsk wrote: 1 Oct 2022, 2:44pm
I agree that the big problems are now political. A lot needs to change and consistent small nudges will help many who are on the brink of decisions to make them.

Most of the energy-related technology that's needed is already out there somewhere.

And I'd add some national economic aspects. The UK has enormous competitive advantage in many parts of this sector: superb technological education and R & D capacity and a large installed base for eg wind power.
Renewable power generation has been being developed for the last fifty years, it’s come a long way in that time. However crucial bits are still missing and hence the considerable fallback onto fossil fuels.

Power storage is the big issue and the technology isn’t really there yet, let me know when electric cars become cheaper than todays fossil fuelled ones. We also fail to make best use of small storage capacity solutions; as in cumulative marginal gains when added together many small capacity solutions actually could make a useful difference. Some years back a friend told me of their experience in Nuclear France, electricity was cheap and heating (a big user of power in the home) was of the night storage type.
...
Which bits do you think are missing technologically? Of course there are problems of scale and cost.

Thanks

Jonathan
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: UK energy

Post by Jdsk »

Carlton green wrote: 1 Oct 2022, 4:08pm ...
Power storage is the big issue and the technology isn’t really there yet, let me know when electric cars become cheaper than todays fossil fuelled ones.
...
"Power storage" for the grid? Or energy storage for car-like objects?

I'm agreeing about the cost (and politics) of EVs. But the technology is out there and working. Sales of BEVs will be something like 10 M, and the world fleet something like 20 M.

Jonathan
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