UK energy

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simonineaston
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Re: UK energy

Post by simonineaston »

My car isn't funded by the taxpayer, it's funded by me.
You might have bought your car, Bob, but we're all paying for it. Ditto mine, lest you think I'm picking on you...!
What with their carbon-footprint, the cost of disposal, the cost in taxation of ongoing environmental damage due to construction and running, the degradation of clean air, the sundry domestic & international trade arrangements and subsidy packages etc etc, I imagine we'd be pretty shocked & depressed if it were possible to see exactly how much our cars costs us all...
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: UK energy

Post by [XAP]Bob »

That wasn't the accusation being levied. The accusation was that since the lease requires me to qualify for a benefit that I am not paying for it.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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simonineaston
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Re: UK energy

Post by simonineaston »

Oh, I forget the cost of policing and building the infrastructure...
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
pete75
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Re: UK energy

Post by pete75 »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 4 May 2023, 11:38am My car isn't funded by the taxpayer, it's funded by me.
That funding happens to use part of my PIP, but the funding comes from me even if not through my bank account.

Your assertion was that money coming from the government makes anything paid for free, so yes - pensioners get everything for free, because the basic state pension isn't dependant on contributions. And nurses also get everything for free, because the government gives them that money, albeit in exchange for an absurd amount of skilled labour.

Would you think any differently if motability had a DD from my bank account?


The basic state pension is dependent on contributions and is also taxable.. This from a government website :-
"The earliest you can get the basic State Pension is when you reach State Pension age. To get the full basic State Pension you need a total of 30 qualifying years of National Insurance contributions ".
The basic state pension has been replaced by the so called New State pension. That requires 35 years of contributions.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Biospace
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Re: UK energy

Post by Biospace »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 4 May 2023, 9:22am And boilers suffer exactly the same...
A heat pump is a just a device which supplies heat.

It doesn't matter what the source of heat is, you'll lose it just the same.
Well, that's a very interesting point as heat energy is delivered to our bodies in different forms which work in different ways and is 'lost' in different ways. Radiant heat will heat you thoroughly, to the core, much more quickly than by convection, slightly more quickly than conduction. Yes, it all becomes 'lost' eventually, but not in the same way.

The less the need for heat, the more a heat pump makes sense.
pete75
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Re: UK energy

Post by pete75 »

Biospace wrote: 4 May 2023, 2:03pm
[XAP]Bob wrote: 4 May 2023, 9:22am And boilers suffer exactly the same...
A heat pump is a just a device which supplies heat.

It doesn't matter what the source of heat is, you'll lose it just the same.
Well, that's a very interesting point as heat energy is delivered to our bodies in different forms which work in different ways and is 'lost' in different ways. Radiant heat will heat you thoroughly, to the core, much more quickly than by convection, slightly more quickly than conduction. Yes, it all becomes 'lost' eventually, but not in the same way.

The less the need for heat, the more a heat pump makes sense.
Heat pumps work best producing constant steady heat. This type of heat is utilised best in a well insulated building.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
pete75
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Re: UK energy

Post by pete75 »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 4 May 2023, 1:10pm That wasn't the accusation being levied. The accusation was that since the lease requires me to qualify for a benefit that I am not paying for it.
No the benefit is paying for it.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Biospace
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Re: UK energy

Post by Biospace »

pete75 wrote: 4 May 2023, 2:36pm
Biospace wrote: 4 May 2023, 2:03pm The less the need for heat, the more a heat pump makes sense.
Heat pumps work best producing constant steady heat. This type of heat is utilised best in a well insulated building.
Yes, although you could say the same for a boiler. It's just that they're usually over-specified for the heat loss of a building as well as being designed to be able to heat a house from cold reasonably quickly, deliver a bathful of hot water while running the central heating and so on.

The rollout of variable and multiple stage HPs will make them more flexible and efficient for many.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: UK energy

Post by [XAP]Bob »

pete75 wrote: 4 May 2023, 2:36pm
[XAP]Bob wrote: 4 May 2023, 1:10pm That wasn't the accusation being levied. The accusation was that since the lease requires me to qualify for a benefit that I am not paying for it.
No the benefit is paying for it.
No it's not. For one thing the benefit is inanimate and therefore not capable of paying for anything - but also, it's me that's doing the paying in exactly the same way I pay into my pension pot.


pete75 wrote: 4 May 2023, 2:36pm
Biospace wrote: 4 May 2023, 2:03pm
[XAP]Bob wrote: 4 May 2023, 9:22am It doesn't matter what the source of heat is, you'll lose it just the same.
Well, that's a very interesting point as heat energy is delivered to our bodies in different forms which work in different ways and is 'lost' in different ways. Radiant heat will heat you thoroughly, to the core, much more quickly than by convection, slightly more quickly than conduction. Yes, it all becomes 'lost' eventually, but not in the same way.

The less the need for heat, the more a heat pump makes sense.
Heat pumps work best producing constant steady heat. This type of heat is utilised best in a well insulated building.
No the more need for heat the more sense a heat pump makes, because you're being more efficient with *more* usage.
The time when other sources make sense is when you're heating stuff to over 70 degrees.

All heating systems work best when providing constant heat - gas, coal, wood, heat pump, whatever.

And all heating systems work best in a well insulated building - this is hardly rocket science (and the science is easy, it's the engineering that's hard)
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
pete75
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Re: UK energy

Post by pete75 »

Biospace wrote: 4 May 2023, 2:43pm
pete75 wrote: 4 May 2023, 2:36pm
Biospace wrote: 4 May 2023, 2:03pm The less the need for heat, the more a heat pump makes sense.
Heat pumps work best producing constant steady heat. This type of heat is utilised best in a well insulated building.
Yes, although you could say the same for a boiler. It's just that they're usually over-specified for the heat loss of a building as well as being designed to be able to heat a house from cold reasonably quickly, deliver a bathful of hot water while running the central heating and so on.

The rollout of variable and multiple stage HPs will make them more flexible and efficient for many.
Our boiler is 36kw. Recently had a quote for heat pump installation from a reputable and experienced company. The system specified has a heat pump of only about half that power. The heat pump system is designed to supply constant steady heat over a long period. Good insulation make sthis effective. The boiler can blast out a lot of heat quickly , so is well capable of coping with heat loss, a heat pump is nowhere near as capable , hence the need for decent insulation.
I'm waiting to see what happens with Ash dieback. We've eight fully grown Ash trees in our garden. If dieback kills them off then most of our heat will come from wood for a long time.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: UK energy

Post by [XAP]Bob »

So do you actually run the boiler at 36kW constantly? Or do you cycle it, making it even less efficient?

The real takeaway here is that the boiler, like so many, is massively oversized.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Biospace
Posts: 2008
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: UK energy

Post by Biospace »

pete75 wrote: 4 May 2023, 3:09pm The boiler can blast out a lot of heat quickly , so is well capable of coping with heat loss, a heat pump is nowhere near as capable , hence the need for decent insulation.
I'm waiting to see what happens with Ash dieback. We've eight fully grown Ash trees in our garden. If dieback kills them off then most of our heat will come from wood for a long time.
It's always possible to fit a heat pump/s which could deliver more heat than needed, like most boilers do, just that the costs would be higher.

If you process the wood yourself then a lot of heat will come from your own body, making the wood last even longer.
pete75
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Re: UK energy

Post by pete75 »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 4 May 2023, 3:50pm So do you actually run the boiler at 36kW constantly? Or do you cycle it, making it even less efficient?

The real takeaway here is that the boiler, like so many, is massively oversized.
It works from a hive controller so it does whatever that tells it to do. We get a regular oil delivery, pay by direct debit, the same as with electricity. I don't really monitor what either costs, they just get paid when due. If the bills were high I'd notice because they come out of the household expense account and we only put about £1500 a month into it. If that's not enough the bank will write and tell us it's gone overdrawn so we'll just put more in.
I suppose if I was a tight bâtard every cost would be monitored and cut back, but why go to all that trouble, worry and effort. It's only money and you can't take it with you.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
pete75
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Re: UK energy

Post by pete75 »

Biospace wrote: 4 May 2023, 3:58pm
pete75 wrote: 4 May 2023, 3:09pm The boiler can blast out a lot of heat quickly , so is well capable of coping with heat loss, a heat pump is nowhere near as capable , hence the need for decent insulation.
I'm waiting to see what happens with Ash dieback. We've eight fully grown Ash trees in our garden. If dieback kills them off then most of our heat will come from wood for a long time.
It's always possible to fit a heat pump/s which could deliver more heat than needed, like most boilers do, just that the costs would be higher.

If you process the wood yourself then a lot of heat will come from your own body, making the wood last even longer.
They do say wood warms you twice. I think if all those big trees had to come down I'd borrow my mate's log splitter - fits on the back of a tractor and works off the hydraulics. There's definitely something wrong with one of the ash trees,because the rooks dismantled all their nests and moved them to a different tree. Rooks know a lot about trees.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: UK energy

Post by [XAP]Bob »

pete75 wrote: 4 May 2023, 10:47pm
[XAP]Bob wrote: 4 May 2023, 3:50pm So do you actually run the boiler at 36kW constantly? Or do you cycle it, making it even less efficient?

The real takeaway here is that the boiler, like so many, is massively oversized.
It works from a hive controller so it does whatever that tells it to do. We get a regular oil delivery, pay by direct debit, the same as with electricity. I don't really monitor what either costs, they just get paid when due. If the bills were high I'd notice because they come out of the household expense account and we only put about £1500 a month into it. If that's not enough the bank will write and tell us it's gone overdrawn so we'll just put more in.
I suppose if I was a tight bâtard every cost would be monitored and cut back, but why go to all that trouble, worry and effort. It's only money and you can't take it with you.
So - you actually haven't even bothered to check how much heat energy you use...
You don't need to be tight, you just need to be one of the millions of people who have too much month left over at the end of the money.

With domestic fuel prices having risen to unprecedented levels, and businesses not even protected by the oft mentioned cap... saving energy is important to more and more people. Additionally, since we're screwing the planet over... you'd be better off sending that oil to a power station and using a heat pump - you'd get more heat into your house for the same amount of oil burnt (even ignoring the additional energy costs of delivering that oil to you).


I'd wager that the boiler is oversized by at least a factor of three.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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