UK energy

[al_yrpal]

I believe the I Mech E's solution to energy storage was compressed air.

On an ex factory site near the West Somerset coast near my sister in laws farm someone is applying for planning permission to site a battery storage complex.

Al

[Jdsk]

I believe the I Mech E's solution to energy storage was compressed air.

It's in the list of available technologies.

They may have discussed it but I doubt that they're suggesting it as the only solution needed.

Brief comparison with batteries:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compresse ... _batteries

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

...
Numbers illustrate this: He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

...

Yes.

We probably all have favourite technologies. Where they fit into national policies and constraints can be rapidly checked by including the numbers.

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

I believe the I Mech E's solution to energy storage was compressed air.

It's in the list of available technologies.

They may have discussed it but I doubt that they're suggesting it as the only solution needed.

Brief comparison with batteries:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compresse ... _batteries

The paper accompanying the IMechE meeting in March this year:

"Beyond batteries and pumped-hydro for large-scale energy storage":
https://www.imeche.org/news/news-articl ... gy-storage

includes: thermo-mechanical energy storage, compressed-air energy storage, pumped-thermal electricity storage and liquid-air energy storage.

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

Which bits do you think are missing technologically? Of course there are problems of scale and cost.

Over-differentiate the categories if you like but personally I'll avoid that complication to say that the currently missing technology (as in specific technology function/item of a usable scale) is wind-generated power using small appliances in low wind velocity situations - i.e. for domestic use.

David Cameron tried this I think, but it was pointed out that wind in proximity to buildings doesn't work well, because of low speeds and turbulence. A rough rule of thumb is at 150m distant, 9m elevation above highest point of obstruction is required.

WindTurbineDistance.jpg

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2006/ ... ashsection

We looked at a small turbine when we renovated our house in South Oxfordshire in 2006. B&Q had a package at £1,900 for "up to 1 kW". I checked the wind speed data for our village. It was nowhere near worth it.

The DIY scheme folded:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... /windpower

Since then the technology might have improved a bit, the electronics for connection to the domestic supply (and the grid) are much more widely available, and the price of alternatives has increased.

Jonathan

[rjb]

What hope is there for us mere mortals when our heads of government don't have a clue.
"Cameron architect knocks the wind out of his turbine | London Evening Standard | Evening Standard" https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/cam ... 7.html?amp

[irc]

I agree that the big problems are now political. A lot needs to change and consistent small nudges will help many who are on the brink of decisions to make them.

Most of the energy-related technology that's needed is already out there somewhere.

And I'd add some national economic aspects. The UK has enormous competitive advantage in many parts of this sector: superb technological education and R & D capacity and a large installed base for eg wind power.

Jonathan

Renewable power generation has been being developed for the last fifty years, it’s come a long way in that time. However crucial bits are still missing and hence the considerable fallback onto fossil fuels.

Power storage is the big issue and the technology isn’t really there yet, let me know when electric cars become cheaper than todays fossil fuelled ones. We also fail to make best use of small storage capacity solutions; as in cumulative marginal gains when added together many small capacity solutions actually could make a useful difference. Some years back a friend told me of their experience in Nuclear France, electricity was cheap and heating (a big user of power in the home) was of the night storage type.

I have for long thought that we could learn a lot from the Isle of Eigg, there they have learnt the value of multiple power sources and the merit of working with what power you have available to you at any point in time: http://isleofeigg.org/eigg-electric/

Fascinating read, the Eigg system, thank you.

Feasible only because the residents only paid 6% of the cost of installation . So perhaps not that relevant to the mainland grid.

http://euanmearns.com/the-eigg-renewabl ... revisited/

[Carlton green]

I believe the I Mech E's solution to energy storage was compressed air.

It's in the list of available technologies.

They may have discussed it but I doubt that they're suggesting it as the only solution needed.

Brief comparison with batteries:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compresse ... _batteries

The paper accompanying the IMechE meeting in March this year:

"Beyond batteries and pumped-hydro for large-scale energy storage":
https://www.imeche.org/news/news-articl ... gy-storage

includes: thermo-mechanical energy storage, compressed-air energy storage, pumped-thermal electricity storage and liquid-air energy storage.

Jonathan

An excellent article, thank you for bringing it to the attention of people reading this thread.

It is energy storage on an industrial scale so the entry costs won’t be low and I can’t see the technologies being discussed being suitable for small scale and or semi skilled use - technical experts and not insignificant capital costs required. However, once the maths is done any large company with wind or large solar farms might usefully gain if they are able to sell their excess and stored electricity for a suitable price, at a suitable discharge rate and at a suitable (sale) frequency - well that or they are paid for having the energy available.

[Carlton green]

Feasible only because the residents only paid 6% of the cost of installation . So perhaps not that relevant to the mainland grid.

That’s a puzzle. As far as I know I haven’t directly paid anything at all for the installation of electricity to my home here on the ‘mainland’. For new users (property) I think that there is a connection charge to the grid.

[al_yrpal]

What hope is there for us mere mortals when our heads of government don't have a clue.
"Cameron architect knocks the wind out of his turbine | London Evening Standard | Evening Standard" https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/cam ... 7.html?amp

An Engineer is the chap who fixes your boiler dressed in an overall. Why on earth should any politician take heed of anything Engineers have to say? What the I Mech E is proposing needs to be demonstrated with large scale rapid experimental installations. Divert the cash saved from Horizon to this stuff, it could be a winner.

Al

[Jdsk]

I don't think that the IMechE are "proposing" anything, and certainly not a single storage technology.

And as the paper from that meeting says "... these TMES technologies are based on proven concepts and have been successfully implemented at least at the pilot-plant scale or in larger demonstrator plants."

What's needed now is a regulatory and strategic framework that provides the incentives for large-scale implementations with evaluation. On the regulatory side that includes planning. And on the strategic a much stronger and much more consistent commitment to a much faster switch to renewable sources. That will drive the requirement for storage and encourage both implementation of existing technologies and further innovation. Fooling around with fracking and getting in the way of on-shore wind and solar sources will do the opposite.

Jonathan

[al_yrpal]

ie large real scale tests to clearly demonstrate the concept and gain credibility and political support. Thats where I would be going...

Al

[Jdsk]

...
It is energy storage on an industrial scale so the entry costs won’t be low and I can’t see the technologies being discussed being suitable for small scale and or semi skilled use - technical experts and not insignificant capital costs required. However, once the maths is done any large company with wind or large solar farms might usefully gain if they are able to sell their excess and stored electricity for a suitable price, at a suitable discharge rate and at a suitable (sale) frequency - well that or they are paid for having the energy available.

Yes.

And that diversity of storage providers (and generators) will need some big political decisions on the strategic approach... how nationalised, how marketised, who will carry risk etc.

Jonathan

PS: It reminds me of local generation of gas for combustion... factories, municipalities...

[Carlton green]

...
It is energy storage on an industrial scale so the entry costs won’t be low and I can’t see the technologies being discussed being suitable for small scale and or semi skilled use - technical experts and not insignificant capital costs required. However, once the maths is done any large company with wind or large solar farms might usefully gain if they are able to sell their excess and stored electricity for a suitable price, at a suitable discharge rate and at a suitable (sale) frequency - well that or they are paid for having the energy available.

Yes.

And that diversity of storage providers (and generators) will need some big political decisions on the strategic approach... how nationalised, how marketised, who will carry risk etc.

Jonathan

PS: It reminds me of local generation of gas for combustion... factories, municipalities...

If left to Government then, more likely than not, nothing will happen - sad but that’s the way it is. I’d have said that the National Grid needs to take it on board as a way of managing continuous delivery and that renewable generation companies need to do similar to store any excess ready for sale on a different day. Perhaps the technology is too new - it will always stay that way unless used - and energy storage life and or density too low (oil is very hard to beat) but a start needs to be made somewhere.

[al_yrpal]

Well, looks like government will have to legislate then and make it mandatory that UK green energy suppliers must build storage for excess unuseable output. At the moment I believe we pay them when we cant use their excess power which is an iniquitous situation that needs to be corrected. They must be rolling in cash right now.

Al