UK energy

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pete75
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Re: UK energy

Post by pete75 »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 5 May 2023, 8:56am
pete75 wrote: 4 May 2023, 10:47pm
[XAP]Bob wrote: 4 May 2023, 3:50pm So do you actually run the boiler at 36kW constantly? Or do you cycle it, making it even less efficient?

The real takeaway here is that the boiler, like so many, is massively oversized.
It works from a hive controller so it does whatever that tells it to do. We get a regular oil delivery, pay by direct debit, the same as with electricity. I don't really monitor what either costs, they just get paid when due. If the bills were high I'd notice because they come out of the household expense account and we only put about £1500 a month into it. If that's not enough the bank will write and tell us it's gone overdrawn so we'll just put more in.
I suppose if I was a tight bâtard every cost would be monitored and cut back, but why go to all that trouble, worry and effort. It's only money and you can't take it with you.
So - you actually haven't even bothered to check how much heat energy you use...
You don't need to be tight, you just need to be one of the millions of people who have too much month left over at the end of the money.

With domestic fuel prices having risen to unprecedented levels, and businesses not even protected by the oft mentioned cap... saving energy is important to more and more people. Additionally, since we're screwing the planet over... you'd be better off sending that oil to a power station and using a heat pump - you'd get more heat into your house for the same amount of oil burnt (even ignoring the additional energy costs of delivering that oil to you).

I'd wager that the boiler is oversized by at least a factor of three.
Hardly. All the calculations were done when we had a new boiler fitted. Recomended boiler size for a house with 3+ bathrooms, 20+ radiators and 4+ bedrooms is 27-40 kwh. Mine is within that range. We do have a largish sitting room, about 70 sqare metres floor area with a ceiling height over 15 feet. That takes some heating.

The energy costs of delivering oil are covered in what the supplier charges per litre - I pay that.

I don't want more heat into the house, what we're getting now is quite sufficient. Why would I be better off using a heat pump? The boiler isn't very old, has a lot of years life left, the old boiler was 45 years old when replaced, and the cost of installing a heat pump system runs well into five figures. That'll buy a lot of oil, and the price is falling rapidly. The same can't be said for electricity.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: UK energy

Post by [XAP]Bob »

I maintain my assertion that the boiler is oversized.

How much oil did you burn over what period in the winter?


The price of electricity is falling, substantially.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
pete75
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Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: UK energy

Post by pete75 »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 7 May 2023, 1:56pm I maintain my assertion that the boiler is oversized.

How much oil did you burn over what period in the winter?


The price of electricity is falling, substantially.
What do you know about boiler sizing? No idea how much oil burnt. The delivery company come and fill the tank when needed.
Electricity is going up in price. I currently pay about 19pence per kWh. In June this will increase to 31pence.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
pwa
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Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: UK energy

Post by pwa »

There is one significant advantage to using oil, and that is that the savvy buyer can keep an eye on prices and buy when they have dipped. You buy in advance of using it, so you can time when you do that to take advantage of market fluctuations. Unless you get to the point where the tank is almost empty.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: UK energy

Post by [XAP]Bob »

pete75 wrote: 7 May 2023, 3:03pm
[XAP]Bob wrote: 7 May 2023, 1:56pm I maintain my assertion that the boiler is oversized.

How much oil did you burn over what period in the winter?


The price of electricity is falling, substantially.
What do you know about boiler sizing? No idea how much oil burnt. The delivery company come and fill the tank when needed.
Electricity is going up in price. I currently pay about 19pence per kWh. In June this will increase to 31pence.
You claim to have done the calculations, and simultaneously to have no idea how much fuel you use. I will continue to confidently assert that the boiler is, like the vast majority of boilers in this country, oversized.

I pay under 7p/kWh for electricity, and that will fall as the year goes on... Oil prices have always been somewhat more volatile than gas or electricity (which tend to march in step due to the rather broken way electricity prices are set).


Yes oil is currently a low cost/kWh fuel source, but it's not always, and it's certainly only that if you don't care about the amount of fuel being burnt.
The time to change was when the boiler was replaced, not replacing a just installed boiler... but a modern oil boiler can (theoretically) get a touch over 90% (I doubt you are, given the lack of knowledge/calculations so far shown). But even at that, you would get more heat into your house by burning that oil at a power station to power a heat pump than you would by burning the oil at home.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
pete75
Posts: 16356
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: UK energy

Post by pete75 »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 7 May 2023, 4:57pm
pete75 wrote: 7 May 2023, 3:03pm
[XAP]Bob wrote: 7 May 2023, 1:56pm I maintain my assertion that the boiler is oversized.

How much oil did you burn over what period in the winter?


The price of electricity is falling, substantially.
What do you know about boiler sizing? No idea how much oil burnt. The delivery company come and fill the tank when needed.
Electricity is going up in price. I currently pay about 19pence per kWh. In June this will increase to 31pence.
You claim to have done the calculations, and simultaneously to have no idea how much fuel you use. I will continue to confidently assert that the boiler is, like the vast majority of boilers in this country, oversized.

I pay under 7p/kWh for electricity, and that will fall as the year goes on... Oil prices have always been somewhat more volatile than gas or electricity (which tend to march in step due to the rather broken way electricity prices are set).


Yes oil is currently a low cost/kWh fuel source, but it's not always, and it's certainly only that if you don't care about the amount of fuel being burnt.
The time to change was when the boiler was replaced, not replacing a just installed boiler... but a modern oil boiler can (theoretically) get a touch over 90% (I doubt you are, given the lack of knowledge/calculations so far shown). But even at that, you would get more heat into your house by burning that oil at a power station to power a heat pump than you would by burning the oil at home.
I haven't claimed to have done any calculations.
The boiler I have is 94% efficient according to sedbuk figures. Why should I change when I have a perfectly satisfactory system?


I'm sure there's a lot of people here who would like electricity for under 7p/kWh. Perhaps you could tell them which supplier sells it at that price.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: UK energy

Post by [XAP]Bob »

You said you had the calculations - now that you don't. Your boiler is therefore massively oversized for the heat demands of your house (because they basically all are).

Clearly you are wealthy enough not to care about the price of energy... that's not the position of many people in the country.

You also don't seem to care about reading... I explicitly didn't suggest changing a new boiler, I said that changing the old one for a heat pump would have been a more effective use of the fuel you burn.

I very much doubt you're running at over 90% efficiency, particularly not if you haven't changed the setup at all. But even if you could run at 100% efficiency, which you cannot possibly do, you'd still be using that fuel less efficiently than a power station, grid and heatpump combination.


It's not as if science is ever going to get anywhere on this fud ridden thread.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
pete75
Posts: 16356
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: UK energy

Post by pete75 »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 7 May 2023, 6:27pm You said you had the calculations - now that you don't. Your boiler is therefore massively oversized for the heat demands of your house (because they basically all are).

Clearly you are wealthy enough not to care about the price of energy... that's not the position of many people in the country.

You also don't seem to care about reading... I explicitly didn't suggest changing a new boiler, I said that changing the old one for a heat pump would have been a more effective use of the fuel you burn.

I very much doubt you're running at over 90% efficiency, particularly not if you haven't changed the setup at all. But even if you could run at 100% efficiency, which you cannot possibly do, you'd still be using that fuel less efficiently than a power station, grid and heatpump combination.


It's not as if science is ever going to get anywhere on this fud ridden thread.
I didn't claim to have done any calculations ,what I said was 'All the calculations were done'. If you cared about reading you'd know the two are not the same.

You seem to be obsessed with saving money, I bet you're a joy in the pub when it comes to your round.

Oh and don't give it the I haven't suggested changing to a heat pump - that's the whole slant of your arguments.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: UK energy

Post by [XAP]Bob »

pete75 wrote: 8 May 2023, 7:19am
[XAP]Bob wrote: 7 May 2023, 6:27pm You said you had the calculations - now that you don't. Your boiler is therefore massively oversized for the heat demands of your house (because they basically all are).
I didn't claim to have done any calculations ,what I said was 'All the calculations were done'. If you cared about reading you'd know the two are not the same.
And if you'd read my post you'd realise that I had already corrected the "done" to "had".
And you are still failing to provide any evidence that your boiler isn't massively oversized.
Clearly you are wealthy enough not to care about the price of energy... that's not the position of many people in the country.
You seem to be obsessed with saving money, I bet you're a joy in the pub when it comes to your round.
Blimey, haven't done rounds in a pub since I was at uni...
That's longer ago than I care to think about.
But I am keen on making good use of resources, whether that's money or other resources - and we have a finite (and ever shrinking) window of opportunity to stop making the planet uninhabitable (to us).


Oh and don't give it the I haven't suggested changing to a heat pump - that's the whole slant of your arguments.
Not even close:
The time to change was when the boiler was replaced, not replacing a just installed boiler...
The time to replace it is likely to be the point at which it becomes difficult to repair. There are a multitude of reasons for that, of which the "embedded resources" argument is the least compelling.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Biospace
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Re: UK energy

Post by Biospace »

Wholesale gas prices could soar this winter, according to https://electricityinfo.org/news/gas-costs/
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: UK energy

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Biospace wrote: 9 May 2023, 1:50pm Wholesale gas prices could soar this winter, according to https://electricityinfo.org/news/gas-costs/
And we'll still have a government that won't even consider actually taxing the major energy companies (not the retail companies).

Though it must be said that the prediction is for a three fold increase ( to ~€100/MWh), which is still lower than the peak in August (€339)

https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/eu-natural-gas

(Long term average pre 2021 was about €20/MWh, (range €10-€30, occasionally dropping as low as €5))
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
pete75
Posts: 16356
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: UK energy

Post by pete75 »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 9 May 2023, 11:16am
pete75 wrote: 8 May 2023, 7:19am
[XAP]Bob wrote: 7 May 2023, 6:27pm You said you had the calculations - now that you don't. Your boiler is therefore massively oversized for the heat demands of your house (because they basically all are).
I didn't claim to have done any calculations ,what I said was 'All the calculations were done'. If you cared about reading you'd know the two are not the same.
And if you'd read my post you'd realise that I had already corrected the "done" to "had".
And you are still failing to provide any evidence that your boiler isn't massively oversized.
[XAP]Bob wrote: 7 May 2023, 4:57pm You claim to have done the calculations, and simultaneously to have no idea how much fuel you use.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: UK energy

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Well I'm sure I could quote stuff as well - but your boiler is still oversized.
I am now utterly confident of that.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Biospace
Posts: 1990
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: UK energy

Post by Biospace »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 9 May 2023, 2:03pm
Biospace wrote: 9 May 2023, 1:50pm Wholesale gas prices could soar this winter, according to https://electricityinfo.org/news/gas-costs/
And we'll still have a government that won't even consider actually taxing the major energy companies (not the retail companies).

Though it must be said that the prediction is for a three fold increase ( to ~€100/MWh), which is still lower than the peak in August (€339)

https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/eu-natural-gas

(Long term average pre 2021 was about €20/MWh, (range €10-€30, occasionally dropping as low as €5))

Yes, too right. I've a feeling we've high Grid energy prices for decades to come.

Well insulated homes which make good use of solar radiation when the sun is lower in the southern sky, solar hot water and PV panels, bicycles for short trips and home grown food would all seem to make sense.
ANTONISH
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Re: UK energy

Post by ANTONISH »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 7 May 2023, 6:27pm You said you had the calculations - now that you don't. Your boiler is therefore massively oversized for the heat demands of your house (because they basically all are).

Clearly you are wealthy enough not to care about the price of energy... that's not the position of many people in the country.

You also don't seem to care about reading... I explicitly didn't suggest changing a new boiler, I said that changing the old one for a heat pump would have been a more effective use of the fuel you burn.

I very much doubt you're running at over 90% efficiency, particularly not if you haven't changed the setup at all. But even if you could run at 100% efficiency, which you cannot possibly do, you'd still be using that fuel less efficiently than a power station, grid and heatpump combination.


It's not as if science is ever going to get anywhere on this fud ridden thread.
I seem to have encountered you on this (and other) threads before.

I have an oil fired boiler which is regularly serviced and is around 90% efficient.
I did the calculations and my system is still cheaper to run than if I replaced it with a heat pump (comparing energy costs of my oil fired boiler with the that of the electricity used for a heat pump).
Your electricity cost per kWh is considerably lower than mine ( I wonder if you are taking the output kWh from your heat pump and using your unit cost of electricity to give such a low figure i.e heat energy out compared to electrical energy in)
A heat pump would have to be in the region of 400% efficient to compete in cost with my oil fired boiler - you have mentioned a higher gain before and I doubt your figures.
There is of course the capital cost of installation and upgrading - if you are happy with your system that is good - it just isn't economic for me.
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