UK energy

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roubaixtuesday
Posts: 5814
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: UK energy

Post by roubaixtuesday »

jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 3:24pm
roubaixtuesday wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 3:21pm
jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 3:18pm

It's a resource and it's finite that's both precise and factual,

There enough lithium in the world to replace all existing cars with electric, not much more.

If that lithium is extractable is another thing, it would require strip mining vast tracks of land and considerable eco damage to do so. That may not be at all popular or eco onical viable unless the price of lithium increased substantially,

It's dirty and subject to the wims of the countries that have it, how much they want for it and how much they are prepared to extract ,very much like oil
I agree with you that resources for batteries are problematic.

But it's not at all the same as oil. Oil will run out. Elemental resources for renewables are far more recyclable and sustainable.
Lithium will run out, quite probably sooner than oil
Absolutely no chance. Worst case scenario, price increases, extraction from seawater becomes economic.
jois
Posts: 334
Joined: 22 Sep 2022, 12:29pm

Re: UK energy

Post by jois »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 4:06pm
jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 3:24pm
roubaixtuesday wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 3:21pm

I agree with you that resources for batteries are problematic.

But it's not at all the same as oil. Oil will run out. Elemental resources for renewables are far more recyclable and sustainable.
Lithium will run out, quite probably sooner than oil
Absolutely no chance. Worst case scenario, price increases, extraction from seawater becomes economic.
So how much is a battery for a family car when sea water become financially viable.

Producing lithium for vehicles that no one can afford isn't solving the problem is it ?

On that basis we will never run out of oil either, there always a bit floating in the sea somewhere
Psamathe
Posts: 17648
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: UK energy

Post by Psamathe »

jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 4:01pm
Psamathe wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 3:50pm
jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 3:24pm

Lithium will run out, quite probably sooner than oil
Then use a storage technology pother than batteries.

Ian
We have energy storage technology for vehicles now, but some folk want to ban it

What are you thinking of, hamsters on a wheel or a perpetual motion machine ?
e.g. hydrogen e.g. heat e.g. pumped hydro

Ian
roubaixtuesday
Posts: 5814
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: UK energy

Post by roubaixtuesday »

jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 4:15pm
roubaixtuesday wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 4:06pm
jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 3:24pm

Lithium will run out, quite probably sooner than oil
Absolutely no chance. Worst case scenario, price increases, extraction from seawater becomes economic.
So how much is a battery for a family car when sea water become financially viable.

Producing lithium for vehicles that no one can afford isn't solving the problem is it ?

On that basis we will never run out of oil either, there always a bit floating in the sea somewhere
Not sure what your point is. If Lithium becomes more expensive, electric car prices go up.

When oil runs out, petrol cars don't exist, and if we extract it all the planet fries. Both of which seem rather more problematic.
jois
Posts: 334
Joined: 22 Sep 2022, 12:29pm

Re: UK energy

Post by jois »

Psamathe wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 4:22pm
jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 4:01pm
Psamathe wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 3:50pm
Then use a storage technology pother than batteries.

Ian
We have energy storage technology for vehicles now, but some folk want to ban it

What are you thinking of, hamsters on a wheel or a perpetual motion machine ?
e.g. hydrogen e.g. heat e.g. pumped hydro

Ian
Hydrogen has potential, but it seems no end of technical problems, I'm wondering how pumped hydro works in cars, there is it seems a significant issue with sites to do pump hydro for general storage and significant losses. It not being a perpetual motion machine
jois
Posts: 334
Joined: 22 Sep 2022, 12:29pm

Re: UK energy

Post by jois »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 4:26pm
jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 4:15pm
roubaixtuesday wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 4:06pm

Absolutely no chance. Worst case scenario, price increases, extraction from seawater becomes economic.
So how much is a battery for a family car when sea water become financially viable.

Producing lithium for vehicles that no one can afford isn't solving the problem is it ?

On that basis we will never run out of oil either, there always a bit floating in the sea somewhere
Not sure what your point is. If Lithium becomes more expensive, electric car prices go up.

When oil runs out, petrol cars don't exist, and if we extract it all the planet fries. Both of which seem rather more problematic.
Well it will get significantly more exspensive long before it runs short, electric cars are not really scalable, a fact I believe they know but are not making known to the public.

If your answer is the end of individual powered transport for all but the mega rich, that does solve that problem but creates a lot of others. Not least no one will vote for it.

I'm not accepting of the worse possible outcomes from climate change as being a fair reflection of what the future holds, so appeals to everyone frying doesn't seem a valid point to me,
Last edited by jois on 30 Sep 2022, 4:43pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jdsk
Posts: 24635
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: UK energy

Post by Jdsk »

There are plenty of niches where hydrogen fuel will have a major rôle: furnaces, space heating, energy storage, shipping, and some special cases of surface transport such as ports and quarries. But car-like objects isn't one of them. The transmission losses are too high, the additional infrastructure is too expensive, and there's a better technology already rolling out rapidly.

Jonathan
Psamathe
Posts: 17648
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: UK energy

Post by Psamathe »

jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 4:34pm
Psamathe wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 4:22pm
jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 4:01pm

We have energy storage technology for vehicles now, but some folk want to ban it

What are you thinking of, hamsters on a wheel or a perpetual motion machine ?
e.g. hydrogen e.g. heat e.g. pumped hydro

Ian
Hydrogen has potential, but it seems no end of technical problems, I'm wondering how pumped hydro works in cars, there is it seems a significant issue with sites to do pump hydro for general storage and significant losses. It not being a perpetual motion machine
I was talking about storage technology for "when the Sun does not shine" or "when the wind does not blow".

Ian
jois
Posts: 334
Joined: 22 Sep 2022, 12:29pm

Re: UK energy

Post by jois »

Psamathe wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 5:32pm
jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 4:34pm
Psamathe wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 4:22pm
e.g. hydrogen e.g. heat e.g. pumped hydro

Ian
Hydrogen has potential, but it seems no end of technical problems, I'm wondering how pumped hydro works in cars, there is it seems a significant issue with sites to do pump hydro for general storage and significant losses. It not being a perpetual motion machine
I was talking about storage technology for "when the Sun does not shine" or "when the wind does not blow".

Ian
If your going to do pumped hydro you need giants electric dams, we are a bit short of those or places to put them
roubaixtuesday
Posts: 5814
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: UK energy

Post by roubaixtuesday »

jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 4:41pm , electric cars are not really scalable, a fact I believe they know but are not making known to the public.
Oh great, an internet conspiracy theorist. Just what we need.
jois
Posts: 334
Joined: 22 Sep 2022, 12:29pm

Re: UK energy

Post by jois »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 5:59pm
jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 4:41pm , electric cars are not really scalable, a fact I believe they know but are not making known to the public.
Oh great, an internet conspiracy theorist. Just what we need.
Do you think they ar scalable, I've already ran through the lithium issues with you, that aside there is a need for billions in infrastructure, public and private of which their is little sign and little hope in the current eccomic climate and that's just this country, third world countries have exactly no chance
roubaixtuesday
Posts: 5814
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: UK energy

Post by roubaixtuesday »

jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 6:24pm
roubaixtuesday wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 5:59pm
jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 4:41pm , electric cars are not really scalable, a fact I believe they know but are not making known to the public.
Oh great, an internet conspiracy theorist. Just what we need.
Do you think they ar scalable, I've already ran through the lithium issues with you, that aside there is a need for billions in infrastructure, public and private of which their is little sign and little hope in the current eccomic climate and that's just this country, third world countries have exactly no chance
I'm not discussing with a conspiracy theorist, thanks all the same.
jois
Posts: 334
Joined: 22 Sep 2022, 12:29pm

Re: UK energy

Post by jois »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 6:26pm
jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 6:24pm
roubaixtuesday wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 5:59pm

Oh great, an internet conspiracy theorist. Just what we need.
Do you think they ar scalable, I've already ran through the lithium issues with you, that aside there is a need for billions in infrastructure, public and private of which their is little sign and little hope in the current eccomic climate and that's just this country, third world countries have exactly no chance
I'm not discussing with a conspiracy theorist, thanks all the same.
Just denigrate me as I disagree, very liberal and mature
roubaixtuesday
Posts: 5814
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: UK energy

Post by roubaixtuesday »

jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 6:27pm
roubaixtuesday wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 6:26pm
jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 6:24pm

Do you think they ar scalable, I've already ran through the lithium issues with you, that aside there is a need for billions in infrastructure, public and private of which their is little sign and little hope in the current eccomic climate and that's just this country, third world countries have exactly no chance
I'm not discussing with a conspiracy theorist, thanks all the same.
Just denigrate me as I disagree, very liberal and mature
You believe there's a conspiracy to withhold the facts about electric vehicles from the public:

"electric cars are not really scalable, a fact I believe they know but are not making known to the public"
Psamathe
Posts: 17648
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: UK energy

Post by Psamathe »

jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 5:50pm
Psamathe wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 5:32pm
jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 4:34pm

Hydrogen has potential, but it seems no end of technical problems, I'm wondering how pumped hydro works in cars, there is it seems a significant issue with sites to do pump hydro for general storage and significant losses. It not being a perpetual motion machine
I was talking about storage technology for "when the Sun does not shine" or "when the wind does not blow".

Ian
If your going to do pumped hydro you need giants electric dams, we are a bit short of those or places to put them
It's one of a number of options that works (and has been working for many years).

Ian
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