UK energy

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Stevek76
Posts: 2084
Joined: 28 Jul 2015, 11:23am

Re: UK energy

Post by Stevek76 »

Use of loose leaf tea with a tea strainer thing that sits in the cup is a good compromise, as little hassle as a teabag and all the nicer taste of not having the floor sweepings.

Kettle wise, immediately refill the kettle after use to extract most of the unused heat in the element, makes for a quicker boil next time for the impatient.

A low fill might be a good idea buy my idea of a 'proper' cup of tea is a ~600ml mug so never really had that problem :lol:
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
Biospace
Posts: 1990
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: UK energy

Post by Biospace »

The flow tidal referenced has very little potential (not zero, but not game changing). Large scale tidal has huge potential, but the capital cost and environmental concerns seem to have made it a non-starter at the moment.

V2G could be huge, and it's a total mystery to me why it's not a compulsory option for EV installations, but in fact it seems not to be available at all. Bonkers while a huge investment in home infrastructure is underway. Just barmy.

Nuclear to reduce the dependence on intermittent renewables seems like a no brainer to me.

I think the V2G issue will be sorted pdq if the smart grid is ready for this but vehicles are not. A few older EVs will not work, but plenty of those which offer 'vehicle to load' but not V2G can be updated to the latter with little more than software updates.

Nuclear may seem like a no-brainer if we assume the world is going to remain largely as it is now for as long as there is a potential hazard for millions of people and for so long as governments' 'long term' remains so short term.

Their idea of 'long term' is 30 or so years, perhaps we'd be in a less bad situation if this grew to something more representative of what's going on in the world outside Westminster and big business. Tidal energy lost government backing in the last decade because of this short termism, the environmental questions were a useful excuse for Cameron and Osborne to back out.

We will need massive storage unless we continue to burn fossil fuels. There could not be a worse partner for renewables than nuclear, inefficiencies grow the more exclusively they (together) supply a grid unless large scale storage is used, which in turn removes the need for two sources. Renewables plus nuclear plus large storage simply means unecessary cost to the consumer. The carbon figures alone would dictate renewable energy is chosen, if that is why we're making these changes.

Screenshot 2022-12-08 at 15.42.01.png
https://web.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jac ... rVsWWS.pdf

While the billions pour into French coffers, we will have to wait until the 2030s for new nuclear expensive electrcity.

https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest ... 2-12-2022/
Jdsk
Posts: 24478
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: UK energy

Post by Jdsk »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 8 Dec 2022, 9:04am ...
V2G could be huge, and it's a total mystery to me why it's not a compulsory option for EV installations, but in fact it seems not to be available at all. Bonkers while a huge investment in home infrastructure is underway. Just barmy.
...
Most of the technology components are now fit for purpose, and the car end of it is starting to appear in new models of EVs.

It also needs the financial incentives to all be working in the right direction. And because so much of this is novel the messages about those have to be really consistent. And with the current (!) UK government they aren't.

Jonathan
roubaixtuesday
Posts: 5801
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: UK energy

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Biospace wrote: 8 Dec 2022, 4:41pm
The flow tidal referenced has very little potential (not zero, but not game changing). Large scale tidal has huge potential, but the capital cost and environmental concerns seem to have made it a non-starter at the moment.

V2G could be huge, and it's a total mystery to me why it's not a compulsory option for EV installations, but in fact it seems not to be available at all. Bonkers while a huge investment in home infrastructure is underway. Just barmy.

Nuclear to reduce the dependence on intermittent renewables seems like a no brainer to me.

I think the V2G issue will be sorted pdq if the smart grid is ready for this but vehicles are not. A few older EVs will not work, but plenty of those which offer 'vehicle to load' but not V2G can be updated to the latter with little more than software updates.

Nuclear may seem like a no-brainer if we assume the world is going to remain largely as it is now for as long as there is a potential hazard for millions of people and for so long as governments' 'long term' remains so short term.

Their idea of 'long term' is 30 or so years, perhaps we'd be in a less bad situation if this grew to something more representative of what's going on in the world outside Westminster and big business. Tidal energy lost government backing in the last decade because of this short termism, the environmental questions were a useful excuse for Cameron and Osborne to back out.

We will need massive storage unless we continue to burn fossil fuels. There could not be a worse partner for renewables than nuclear, inefficiencies grow the more exclusively they (together) supply a grid unless large scale storage is used, which in turn removes the need for two sources. Renewables plus nuclear plus large storage simply means unecessary cost to the consumer. The carbon figures alone would dictate renewable energy is chosen, if that is why we're making these changes.


Screenshot 2022-12-08 at 15.42.01.png
https://web.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jac ... rVsWWS.pdf

While the billions pour into French coffers, we will have to wait until the 2030s for new nuclear expensive electrcity.

https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest ... 2-12-2022/
I am interested what you think are the "large storage" technologies.

I disagree that safety is a negative for nuclear - quite the opposite.
Biospace
Posts: 1990
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: UK energy

Post by Biospace »

Has it been decided yet how tower blocks and those with only on-street parking will be able to connect their EV to the grid?

https://www.motaclarity.co.uk/news/how- ... ectric-car
Biospace
Posts: 1990
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: UK energy

Post by Biospace »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 8 Dec 2022, 4:57pm I am interested what you think are the "large storage" technologies.

I disagree that safety is a negative for nuclear - quite the opposite.

Storage - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_energy_storage

Potential hazards of nuclear were referred to in a reference to how governments see the world and then form their policies. For example, there appears to have been an increasing assumption that a lack of war and conflict can be taken as a given over the last two decades.

Large scale tidal projects will usually fail to make financial sense using 30 or 35 years as the longest term thinking, another example of how the parameters affect policy.

What are the chances that gas will still be a good proportion of our grid energy in 2035?
roubaixtuesday
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Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: UK energy

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Biospace wrote: 8 Dec 2022, 5:13pm
roubaixtuesday wrote: 8 Dec 2022, 4:57pm I am interested what you think are the "large storage" technologies.

I disagree that safety is a negative for nuclear - quite the opposite.

Storage - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_energy_storage

Potential hazards of nuclear were referred to in a reference to how governments see the world and then form their policies. For example, there appears to have been an increasing assumption that a lack of war and conflict can be taken as a given over the last two decades.

Large scale tidal projects will usually fail to make financial sense using 30 or 35 years as the longest term thinking, another example of how the parameters affect policy.

What are the chances that gas will still be a good proportion of our grid energy in 2035?
Not sure what your link to Wiki is for - that page makes almost the exact same points I did - perhaps you could clarify?

I agree re large scale tidal and the choice of parameters for financial decisions - thinking specifically of the discount rate applied.

Gas will certainly be an essential part of the grid in 2035. To what extent necessary for despatchable response and peaking, and to what extent as more routine demand is impossible to say at this distance.

All just my personal opinions.
Biospace
Posts: 1990
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: UK energy

Post by Biospace »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 8 Dec 2022, 7:16pm
Not sure what your link to Wiki is for - that page makes almost the exact same points I did - perhaps you could clarify?

I agree re large scale tidal and the choice of parameters for financial decisions - thinking specifically of the discount rate applied.

Gas will certainly be an essential part of the grid in 2035. To what extent necessary for despatchable response and peaking, and to what extent as more routine demand is impossible to say at this distance.

All just my personal opinions.
I am interested what you think are the "large storage" technologies.

What do I think are large storage technologies? In which case the Wikipedia page encapsulates things fairly well. Or what do I think would work best as large scale storage for the UK? For both nuclear and renewables? We don't yet know how well organised our production side will be, but we do know there is a lot of wind generation already and there is going to be a lot more. Storage a technology which is in development, not yet tried on a large scale. There are a lot of unknowns.

My thoughts: liquid fuel takes up a relatively small volume, does not leak energy and inefficiencies of production necessitate use of surplus-only energy. Could work well for inter-seasonal storage. Batteries are going to be widely owned for personal transport, it will make sense to use them using the Smart Grid despite the environmental costs. Good for lopping off those demand spikes, good for involving the public in an energy discussion. Tidal barrages and lagoons are yet to be trialled on a large scale, tides are totally predicable and reliable for daily production, we have good access to a lot of coastline potential. Added storage comes at a low marginal cost, in large quantities.

There's a lot left out in the above, it's a huge subject with a long way to go. Use of geothermal energy, larger grids and less waste will likely all play a part in reducing storage demands.
roubaixtuesday
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Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: UK energy

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Biospace wrote: 8 Dec 2022, 11:26pm
roubaixtuesday wrote: 8 Dec 2022, 7:16pm
Not sure what your link to Wiki is for - that page makes almost the exact same points I did - perhaps you could clarify?

I agree re large scale tidal and the choice of parameters for financial decisions - thinking specifically of the discount rate applied.

Gas will certainly be an essential part of the grid in 2035. To what extent necessary for despatchable response and peaking, and to what extent as more routine demand is impossible to say at this distance.

All just my personal opinions.
I am interested what you think are the "large storage" technologies.

What do I think are large storage technologies? In which case the Wikipedia page encapsulates things fairly well. Or what do I think would work best as large scale storage for the UK? For both nuclear and renewables? We don't yet know how well organised our production side will be, but we do know there is a lot of wind generation already and there is going to be a lot more. Storage a technology which is in development, not yet tried on a large scale. There are a lot of unknowns.

My thoughts: liquid fuel takes up a relatively small volume, does not leak energy and inefficiencies of production necessitate use of surplus-only energy. Could work well for inter-seasonal storage. Batteries are going to be widely owned for personal transport, it will make sense to use them using the Smart Grid despite the environmental costs. Good for lopping off those demand spikes, good for involving the public in an energy discussion. Tidal barrages and lagoons are yet to be trialled on a large scale, tides are totally predicable and reliable for daily production, we have good access to a lot of coastline potential. Added storage comes at a low marginal cost, in large quantities.

There's a lot left out in the above, it's a huge subject with a long way to go. Use of geothermal energy, larger grids and less waste will likely all play a part in reducing storage demands.
What liquids do you think can be used for storage?

What is the basis for "Added storage comes at a low marginal cost, in large quantities." - AFAICT the whole problem with storage is that it's ruinously expensive in large quantities, or indeed not feasible at all.
Ben@Forest
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Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 5:58pm

Re: UK energy

Post by Ben@Forest »

According to the Telegraph it's the first big test of the current energy crisis this weekend.

Thick, heavy clouds and little to no wind are in the forecast for the UK this weekend. The Germans call this type of weather “Dunkelflaute”, which literally means dark wind stillness or lull. Meteorologists prefer the term anticyclonic gloom.

Such weather conditions are hardly unusual this time of year, but they present a problem: the lack of wind means very little renewable energy will be generated from turbines, at the same time as winter ramps up demand for power as the lights come on earlier.

Wind power contributed just over a quarter of the total electricity generated in Britain over the last few months, according to National Grid data, but that will drop to sharply as “Dunkelflaute” hits.

“It’s the first test,” says Tony Jordan from energy consultancy Auxilione. “When there's a lack of wind it puts the rest of the generation under pressure. So we need to turn to other fuels to generate power, mostly gas normally. So it pushes the cost of generation up.”

This weekend will be the first real test of how Britain will navigate squeezed supplies of gas this winter, as the war in Ukraine continues...


Though here at the moment (close to Teesside) it's bright blue skies and sun. Though not a breath of wind.
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Mick F
Spambuster
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Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: UK energy

Post by Mick F »

Here in deepest Tamar Valley, it was 3degC when I got up at 05:45, and now it's down to 1degC.
Frosty, bright sunshine, crystal clear sky, and a gorgeous morning.

Hearing on the news over the last few weeks that people have had to turn teir heating down to save money.
Why "turn it down"?
Why not heat only one room?

Why heat a bedroom or any other room?

When we woz kids, we had a coal fire in the livingroom, and one in the dining room - not often lit. No other heating, and it was a big three bedroom semi.

Get up in the morning in the winter and could scrape the ice off the windows. We had extra blankets - and even coats - on the bed, and wore thick pyjamas too.
Mick F. Cornwall
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al_yrpal
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Re: UK energy

Post by al_yrpal »

Ben@Forest wrote: 9 Dec 2022, 9:07am According to the Telegraph it's the first big test of the current energy crisis this weekend.

Thick, heavy clouds and little to no wind are in the forecast for the UK this weekend. The Germans call this type of weather “Dunkelflaute”, which literally means dark wind stillness or lull. Meteorologists prefer the term anticyclonic gloom.

Such weather conditions are hardly unusual this time of year, but they present a problem: the lack of wind means very little renewable energy will be generated from turbines, at the same time as winter ramps up demand for power as the lights come on earlier.

Wind power contributed just over a quarter of the total electricity generated in Britain over the last few months, according to National Grid data, but that will drop to sharply as “Dunkelflaute” hits.

“It’s the first test,” says Tony Jordan from energy consultancy Auxilione. “When there's a lack of wind it puts the rest of the generation under pressure. So we need to turn to other fuels to generate power, mostly gas normally. So it pushes the cost of generation up.”

This weekend will be the first real test of how Britain will navigate squeezed supplies of gas this winter, as the war in Ukraine continues...


Though here at the moment (close to Teesside) it's bright blue skies and sun. Though not a breath of wind.
These climatic conditions happen every January. No wind, little sun, freezing temperatures. We have know nothing governments in thrall to the eco loons. Get your thermals out...

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
roubaixtuesday
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Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: UK energy

Post by roubaixtuesday »

al_yrpal wrote: 9 Dec 2022, 10:30am These climatic conditions happen every January. No wind, little sun, freezing temperatures. We have know nothing governments in thrall to the eco loons. Get your thermals out...

Al
What is your suggested energy policy to deal with this problem Al? Anything other than more underwear?
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al_yrpal
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Re: UK energy

Post by al_yrpal »

Simple really farm out the overall energy strategy to people who know what they are talking about and keep politics out of it.

It always makes me groan when I hear the term 'environmentalist'. Most of them seem to have one track minds with unscientific nutty views. I knew a prominent one personally for many years. IMO he was a raving nutjob full of second hand barmy notions.

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
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Cugel
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Re: UK energy

Post by Cugel »

al_yrpal wrote: 9 Dec 2022, 11:47am Simple really farm out the overall energy strategy to people who know what they are talking about and keep politics out of it.
Alas, such people have all been replaced with others who only know about how to talk about making money and have no interest in making goods or services except for the faux kind that maximises profits.
al_yrpal wrote: 9 Dec 2022, 11:47am It always makes me groan when I hear the term 'environmentalist'. Most of them seem to have one track minds with unscientific nutty views. I knew a prominent one personally for many years. IMO he was a raving nutjob full of second hand barmy notions.

Al
That was a mirror, then, was it? :-)

Cugel, just a mentalist.
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
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