UK energy
Re: UK energy
I believe the I Mech E's solution to energy storage was compressed air.
On an ex factory site near the West Somerset coast near my sister in laws farm someone is applying for planning permission to site a battery storage complex.
Al
On an ex factory site near the West Somerset coast near my sister in laws farm someone is applying for planning permission to site a battery storage complex.
Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
Re: UK energy
It's in the list of available technologies.
They may have discussed it but I doubt that they're suggesting it as the only solution needed.
Brief comparison with batteries:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compresse ... _batteries
Jonathan
Re: UK energy
Yes.roubaixtuesday wrote: ↑1 Oct 2022, 9:42pm...
Numbers illustrate this: He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
...
We probably all have favourite technologies. Where they fit into national policies and constraints can be rapidly checked by including the numbers.
Jonathan
Re: UK energy
The paper accompanying the IMechE meeting in March this year:Jdsk wrote: ↑2 Oct 2022, 8:29amIt's in the list of available technologies.
They may have discussed it but I doubt that they're suggesting it as the only solution needed.
Brief comparison with batteries:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compresse ... _batteries
"Beyond batteries and pumped-hydro for large-scale energy storage":
https://www.imeche.org/news/news-articl ... gy-storage
includes: thermo-mechanical energy storage, compressed-air energy storage, pumped-thermal electricity storage and liquid-air energy storage.
Jonathan
Re: UK energy
We looked at a small turbine when we renovated our house in South Oxfordshire in 2006. B&Q had a package at £1,900 for "up to 1 kW". I checked the wind speed data for our village. It was nowhere near worth it.Biospace wrote: ↑1 Oct 2022, 10:45pmDavid Cameron tried this I think, but it was pointed out that wind in proximity to buildings doesn't work well, because of low speeds and turbulence. A rough rule of thumb is at 150m distant, 9m elevation above highest point of obstruction is required.Cugel wrote: ↑1 Oct 2022, 6:11pmOver-differentiate the categories if you like but personally I'll avoid that complication to say that the currently missing technology (as in specific technology function/item of a usable scale) is wind-generated power using small appliances in low wind velocity situations - i.e. for domestic use.
WindTurbineDistance.jpg
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2006/ ... ashsection
The DIY scheme folded:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... /windpower
Since then the technology might have improved a bit, the electronics for connection to the domestic supply (and the grid) are much more widely available, and the price of alternatives has increased.
Jonathan
Re: UK energy
What hope is there for us mere mortals when our heads of government don't have a clue.
"Cameron architect knocks the wind out of his turbine | London Evening Standard | Evening Standard" https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/cam ... 7.html?amp
"Cameron architect knocks the wind out of his turbine | London Evening Standard | Evening Standard" https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/cam ... 7.html?amp
At the last count:- Peugeot 531 pro, Dawes Discovery Tandem, Dawes Kingpin X3, Raleigh 20 stowaway X2, 1965 Moulton deluxe, Falcon K2 MTB dropped bar tourer, Rudge Bi frame folder, Longstaff trike conversion on a Giant XTC 840
Re: UK energy
Feasible only because the residents only paid 6% of the cost of installation . So perhaps not that relevant to the mainland grid.roubaixtuesday wrote: ↑1 Oct 2022, 4:28pmFascinating read, the Eigg system, thank you.Carlton green wrote: ↑1 Oct 2022, 4:08pmRenewable power generation has been being developed for the last fifty years, it’s come a long way in that time. However crucial bits are still missing and hence the considerable fallback onto fossil fuels.Jdsk wrote: ↑1 Oct 2022, 2:44pm
I agree that the big problems are now political. A lot needs to change and consistent small nudges will help many who are on the brink of decisions to make them.
Most of the energy-related technology that's needed is already out there somewhere.
And I'd add some national economic aspects. The UK has enormous competitive advantage in many parts of this sector: superb technological education and R & D capacity and a large installed base for eg wind power.
Jonathan
Power storage is the big issue and the technology isn’t really there yet, let me know when electric cars become cheaper than todays fossil fuelled ones. We also fail to make best use of small storage capacity solutions; as in cumulative marginal gains when added together many small capacity solutions actually could make a useful difference. Some years back a friend told me of their experience in Nuclear France, electricity was cheap and heating (a big user of power in the home) was of the night storage type.
I have for long thought that we could learn a lot from the Isle of Eigg, there they have learnt the value of multiple power sources and the merit of working with what power you have available to you at any point in time: http://isleofeigg.org/eigg-electric/
http://euanmearns.com/the-eigg-renewabl ... revisited/
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Re: UK energy
An excellent article, thank you for bringing it to the attention of people reading this thread.Jdsk wrote: ↑2 Oct 2022, 8:38amThe paper accompanying the IMechE meeting in March this year:Jdsk wrote: ↑2 Oct 2022, 8:29amIt's in the list of available technologies.
They may have discussed it but I doubt that they're suggesting it as the only solution needed.
Brief comparison with batteries:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compresse ... _batteries
"Beyond batteries and pumped-hydro for large-scale energy storage":
https://www.imeche.org/news/news-articl ... gy-storage
includes: thermo-mechanical energy storage, compressed-air energy storage, pumped-thermal electricity storage and liquid-air energy storage.
Jonathan
It is energy storage on an industrial scale so the entry costs won’t be low and I can’t see the technologies being discussed being suitable for small scale and or semi skilled use - technical experts and not insignificant capital costs required. However, once the maths is done any large company with wind or large solar farms might usefully gain if they are able to sell their excess and stored electricity for a suitable price, at a suitable discharge rate and at a suitable (sale) frequency - well that or they are paid for having the energy available.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
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Re: UK energy
That’s a puzzle. As far as I know I haven’t directly paid anything at all for the installation of electricity to my home here on the ‘mainland’. For new users (property) I think that there is a connection charge to the grid.Feasible only because the residents only paid 6% of the cost of installation . So perhaps not that relevant to the mainland grid.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Re: UK energy
An Engineer is the chap who fixes your boiler dressed in an overall. Why on earth should any politician take heed of anything Engineers have to say? What the I Mech E is proposing needs to be demonstrated with large scale rapid experimental installations. Divert the cash saved from Horizon to this stuff, it could be a winner.rjb wrote: ↑2 Oct 2022, 8:55am What hope is there for us mere mortals when our heads of government don't have a clue.
"Cameron architect knocks the wind out of his turbine | London Evening Standard | Evening Standard" https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/cam ... 7.html?amp
Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
Re: UK energy
I don't think that the IMechE are "proposing" anything, and certainly not a single storage technology.
And as the paper from that meeting says "... these TMES technologies are based on proven concepts and have been successfully implemented at least at the pilot-plant scale or in larger demonstrator plants."
What's needed now is a regulatory and strategic framework that provides the incentives for large-scale implementations with evaluation. On the regulatory side that includes planning. And on the strategic a much stronger and much more consistent commitment to a much faster switch to renewable sources. That will drive the requirement for storage and encourage both implementation of existing technologies and further innovation. Fooling around with fracking and getting in the way of on-shore wind and solar sources will do the opposite.
Jonathan
And as the paper from that meeting says "... these TMES technologies are based on proven concepts and have been successfully implemented at least at the pilot-plant scale or in larger demonstrator plants."
What's needed now is a regulatory and strategic framework that provides the incentives for large-scale implementations with evaluation. On the regulatory side that includes planning. And on the strategic a much stronger and much more consistent commitment to a much faster switch to renewable sources. That will drive the requirement for storage and encourage both implementation of existing technologies and further innovation. Fooling around with fracking and getting in the way of on-shore wind and solar sources will do the opposite.
Jonathan
Re: UK energy
ie large real scale tests to clearly demonstrate the concept and gain credibility and political support. Thats where I would be going...
Al
Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
Re: UK energy
Yes.Carlton green wrote: ↑2 Oct 2022, 9:30am...
It is energy storage on an industrial scale so the entry costs won’t be low and I can’t see the technologies being discussed being suitable for small scale and or semi skilled use - technical experts and not insignificant capital costs required. However, once the maths is done any large company with wind or large solar farms might usefully gain if they are able to sell their excess and stored electricity for a suitable price, at a suitable discharge rate and at a suitable (sale) frequency - well that or they are paid for having the energy available.
And that diversity of storage providers (and generators) will need some big political decisions on the strategic approach... how nationalised, how marketised, who will carry risk etc.
Jonathan
PS: It reminds me of local generation of gas for combustion... factories, municipalities...
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Re: UK energy
If left to Government then, more likely than not, nothing will happen - sad but that’s the way it is. I’d have said that the National Grid needs to take it on board as a way of managing continuous delivery and that renewable generation companies need to do similar to store any excess ready for sale on a different day. Perhaps the technology is too new - it will always stay that way unless used - and energy storage life and or density too low (oil is very hard to beat) but a start needs to be made somewhere.Jdsk wrote: ↑2 Oct 2022, 10:28amYes.Carlton green wrote: ↑2 Oct 2022, 9:30am...
It is energy storage on an industrial scale so the entry costs won’t be low and I can’t see the technologies being discussed being suitable for small scale and or semi skilled use - technical experts and not insignificant capital costs required. However, once the maths is done any large company with wind or large solar farms might usefully gain if they are able to sell their excess and stored electricity for a suitable price, at a suitable discharge rate and at a suitable (sale) frequency - well that or they are paid for having the energy available.
And that diversity of storage providers (and generators) will need some big political decisions on the strategic approach... how nationalised, how marketised, who will carry risk etc.
Jonathan
PS: It reminds me of local generation of gas for combustion... factories, municipalities...
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Re: UK energy
Well, looks like government will have to legislate then and make it mandatory that UK green energy suppliers must build storage for excess unuseable output. At the moment I believe we pay them when we cant use their excess power which is an iniquitous situation that needs to be corrected. They must be rolling in cash right now.
Al
Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......