Can ignorance and intelligence coexist in the same person?

[Nearholmer]

You can pick up a national qualification in word processing or a whole variety of building skills

I think we’re looking at this from different ends of the telescope.

What I’m trying to point out is that big things, like lifting the living standards of a significant proportion of the population, or solving a national skills shortage, or getting real about having a low-emissions economy need leadership, that it’s the governments job to provide that leadership, and for too long UK governments have shirked their responsibilities in these areas. Governments in other countries in Europe and places like China haven’t.

Would you entrust national defence to individual bods signing-up to do an NVQ in soldiering at the local technical college? No, because we all know it needs leadership, direction, organisation, focus etc to defend a country, so we put that in place.

Individual gumption is commendable, highly necessary, but it isn’t sufficient.

[Ben@Forest]

What I’m trying to point out is that big things, like lifting the living standards of a significant proportion of the population, or solving a national skills shortage, or getting real about having a low-emissions economy need leadership, that it’s the governments job to provide that leadership, and for too long UK governments have shirked their responsibilities in these areas. Governments in other countries in Europe and places like China haven’t.

Would you entrust national defence to individual bods signing-up to do an NVQ in soldiering at the local technical college? No, because we all know it needs leadership, direction, organisation, focus etc to defend a country, so we put that in place.

Really? Other western European countries have as many, or as few, problems as we do. And as to defence it is now clear Germany, has in the last 20 years, shirked its responsibilities in a way the UK has not. The Bundeswehr has been run down and now at least part of the reason Germany is not supplying weapons to Ukraine is they simply don't have them to give.

One could also argue Germany's energy policy was not well-led, they have more problems with right-wing attacks and racial intolerance than we do - and they're suffering a shortage of doctors.

[francovendee]

My comment isnt related to the MP its just what I have observed in my life...
A man who I knew who wrote a dozen lines of code which earned him $10 million but was a total disaster in his personal life due to lack of common sense in the way he lived his life. Highly intelligent, gifted, but a total wreck.

Al

Again I find I have to agree with you
I do agree with Cugel and the 'B' subject you and I disagree on is an example. What's common sense in your eyes is quite the reverse in mine.

[PedallingSquares]

I can think of at least three people I have known well, who have excelled in their chosen fields because of self-belief and an ability to make others think they are good at what they do. In spite of being a bit lacking in the little grey cells and relying on others beneath them to do all the real thinking. The incompetent delegating to the competent, but taking the credit.

'Bulls**t baffles brains'
How most of lower management I know got to be managers!

[Pebble]

What I’m trying to point out is that big things, like lifting the living standards of a significant proportion of the population, or solving a national skills shortage, or getting real about having a low-emissions economy need leadership, that it’s the governments job to provide that leadership, and for too long UK governments have shirked their responsibilities in these areas. Governments in other countries in Europe and places like China haven’t.

Would you entrust national defence to individual bods signing-up to do an NVQ in soldiering at the local technical college? No, because we all know it needs leadership, direction, organisation, focus etc to defend a country, so we put that in place.

Really? Other western European countries have as many, or as few, problems as we do. And as to defence it is now clear Germany, has in the last 20 years, shirked its responsibilities in a way the UK has not. The Bundeswehr has been run down and now at least part of the reason Germany is not supplying weapons to Ukraine is they simply don't have them to give.

One could also argue Germany's energy policy was not well-led, they have more problems with right-wing attacks and racial intolerance than we do - and they're suffering a shortage of doctors.

Aye, but they're still in the EU

--------------------------

back to the OP, I guess it needs context and who is he referring to. If he is having a pop at he Teachers, Nurses, Police Officers, Train Drivers etc, then fair enough - let them go and see if they can get get better work (inc pensions) some where else. I'm getting bored with tthese super well paid pleading poverty and hard done by. People on 30, 40k a year claiming they need food banks. yeah right.

[Nearholmer]

Really? Other western European countries have as many, or as few, problems as we do. And as to defence it is now clear Germany, has in the last 20 years, shirked its responsibilities in a way the UK has not.

Yes, really.

We are talking here about the difference between a low-skills economy and a high-skills economy, about education and training, and the UK has an appalling record in that respect compared with other countries.

I mentioned defence only to make the point that big things have to be organised and directed properly, not left to individual enterprise, I am not saying that Germany has a good record in defence (we all know why they have been very shy of appearing martial), or energy policy.

If you think the UK has been well-led in respect of skills and training, please explain how or why, because I don’t observe the tiniest bit of evidence of that. About the only thing politicians across the board agree on is that we have a low productivity economy, and critical skills shortages, and that those things are harming us.

[mattheus]

So in response to Mattheus it's the ignorance / intelligence I'm interested in as applied to power / political power. The MP got me motivated, shall we say, to comment and gave an example too.

I do appreciate you responding to my point. But I'd say that as soon as you bring politics into it, the question is changed enormously.
(and hence the thread title is very misleading).

Just my opinion, feel free to carry on ...

[Ben@Forest]

If you think the UK has been well-led in respect of skills and training, please explain how or why, because I don’t observe the tiniest bit of evidence of that. About the only thing politicians across the board agree on is that we have a low productivity economy, and critical skills shortages, and that those things are harming us.

I would simply say people who generally compare this country negatively to its near neighbours have never lived in another European country, or if they do, cannot speak the language and don't read or listen its media.

The UK has problems, but all countries do; over the years I've heard Germans complain about the difficulty of setting up a new business in Germany compared to the UK and the lack of trained people (the below is from Deutsche Welle in August.)

There is now an acute shortage of trainees in the country.

A recent survey of 15,000 companies by the Association of German Chambers of Industry and Commerce found that 42% of companies were unable to fill all their apprenticeship positions in 2021. The shortage of trainees is at an "all-time high," they said.

Simply put the UK is not uniquely bad at anything. Saying other western countries are better led overall displays a level of ignorance about those countries.

[Nearholmer]

You are busily stuffing my mouth with words that never came out of it.

Interestingly, the fact that Germany is struggling to fill apprenticeship places rather makes my point: they have the training g systems in place. In this country any good-quality training opportunity, apprenticeship, graduate scheme etc is deluged with applicants, there are fewer good-quality training places available than youngsters to fill them.

We are if not uniquely bad at education and training then at least well below par, and the resultant gap has been highlighted by Brexit, which has made it harder for all sectors to plug the gap in home-grown skills by importing skills from elsewhere.

I do t know what France, Italy, Spain, Germany etc are particularly bad at (well I’ve got a few clues), but I do know that since the 1980s the UK has been particularly bad at education, training, and equipping itself with skills. There is report after report, sector by sector, pointing the problem out, all parties agree there is a problem, and where they differ is on how to solve it.

As a PS: It isnt the first time that Britain has got into this position. There was a serious shortage of technical education, skills, and knowledge in Britain duing the "second industrial revolution", from c1870 onwards, which damaged British competetiveness, and, after much agitation, led to the establishment of the City & Guilds arrangements.

[mattheus]

I do t know what France, Italy, Spain, Germany etc are particularly bad at (well I’ve got a few clues)

Pop music.

There, I've said it - we don't need to tiptoe around the subject any further.

[Ben@Forest]

Schlager or Schlager rock is particularly underrated....

https://www.theawl.com/2017/07/is-schla ... -produced/

[Nearholmer]

Pop music.

Good point.

Other things I might suggest from the point of view of an occassional vistor are:

Spain - outside of large cities, the setting and enforcing of planning rules, and the provision and maintenance of pavements.

France - tolerant co-existence between people of French ethnicity and people of colonial ethnicities (in the South particularly, some local authorities are nakedly racist, fascistic almost).

Italy - dealing with organised crime and corruption as it affects the provision of services by local authorities.

Netherlands - dog turds in public parks.

[Ben@Forest]

Italy - dealing with organised crime and corruption as it affects the provision of services by local authorities.

I knew a woman who taught English in a southern Italian school. Once when trying to report a suspected gas leak the gas provider wanted a bribe to come out and check.

[reohn2]

Everybody has intelligence; we all have gaps in our knowledge so are also ignorant.

So, trivially, yes.

I also agree with Cudgel that "common sense" can also mean "prejudice".

But I think the original post isn't really about intelligence or ignorance. More arrogance, humility and self knowledge.

Nail,head,on!

FWIW,I'm simultaneously intelligent and ignorant.

[reohn2]

There's an interview with a tory minister where he basically said that anyone struggling should go out and get a better paying job. He's obviously intelligent to get where he has but IMHO that comment makes him truly ignorant.

I know people who will never be able to get a better paying job. Unskilled and uneducated they are never going to get away from minimum wage or near minimum wage jobs. However this MP has obviously no experience beyond his privileged, middle class, white collar world. That's ignorance that came out with his stupid comments. Oh it's sensible to go out and get a better paying job but that's not advice that works for a great many people. He didn't know that nor did he know enough to keep his mouth shut when such thoughts came into his head.

What's your view on ignorance and intelligence and whether they can exist in the same person? Do you have examples either way?

Well it depends, certainly they all can't as there are not that many better paying jobs, but it's very likely any one of them could choose to do so, if they were prepared to sign up to night school to obtain qualifications/ skills.

Really?
Presently there are many,many over qualified people who cannot find work to which they're qualified to do.Likewise I've mer quite a few people with good qualifications who choose to work in a less qualified job because they want to.
Don't mistake intelligence with job position.