People are right to trespass in fight for right to roam in England, says Green MP

[Nearholmer]

I fail to see the problem if something is gated. Climb it. Ah, it's too hard on a bike. Well go somewhere easier. Why do we always want the easy way and expect the world to provide it?

It’s a matter of degree. If there is a gate to climb every ten minutes, it’s not a bike ride, it’s an assault course. If there’s one an hour, or maybe every half hour, it’s still a bike ride. As for deer-fence stiles, which are about twelve-feet high, I’m thinking maybe even one of those to cross with a bike might constitute an assault course.

I’m neither interviewing to join the Royal Marines nor as young as I used to be, so doing assault courses with a bike, especially one with luggage on, isn’t what I personally signed up for, so it would be useful to be able to tell from a map whether a route is an assault course, in which case, yes, I’ll go somewhere easier, or not. If you did sign up to do assault courses, super; enjoy it.

[Paulatic]

[
So are farmers forbidden to put locks on gates? They do that around here to help discourage people letting cattle and sheep out, or stealing them. Or stealing farm machinery. And if they can put locks on gates, you can't be sure which gates will be locked until you get to them, can you? one farm near here (in Wales) has a large piece of farm machinery parked against the inside of a gate to make it hard for night raiders to get into the yard and the barns beyond, where other valuable kit is stored. So that gate, and the tracks beyond (no PROWs) would be inaccessible if this were in Scotland. Would that be allowed?

They can lock any gate they want but if it’s on a core path then there will need to be a kissing gate, stile or hunt gate.
In practice the only locks I see have an equine behind it. Early summer we had a spate of vehicles in fields with running dogs after deer. Travelled here from Newcastle >80mls away. Working through the, usually windy, night they left gates open and spoiled crops. Consequently there’s now a lot of roadside gateways with large obstructions within.

[pwa]

I wonder why OS don’t highlight the “ core paths” somehow so that you know that there will be a reasonably unobstructed route without locked gates every “five minutes”, or those huge stiles over deer fences that I’ve seen pictures of.

The situation in areas with enclosed fields sounds as if it might actually present more difficulty than in England.

Can I afford a holiday in Scotland next year to satisfy my curiosity? Hmmm …….

Perhaps we can do a crowd-funding thing to send you off doing a bit of research for us

[pwa]

....In my time living in England I came across locked gates on ROW, so the existence of green dots on an OS map doesn't mean there won't be an obstruction.


- Nigel

That is, of course, correct.

[pwa]

[
So are farmers forbidden to put locks on gates? They do that around here to help discourage people letting cattle and sheep out, or stealing them. Or stealing farm machinery. And if they can put locks on gates, you can't be sure which gates will be locked until you get to them, can you? one farm near here (in Wales) has a large piece of farm machinery parked against the inside of a gate to make it hard for night raiders to get into the yard and the barns beyond, where other valuable kit is stored. So that gate, and the tracks beyond (no PROWs) would be inaccessible if this were in Scotland. Would that be allowed?

They can lock any gate they want but if it’s on a core path then there will need to be a kissing gate, stile or hunt gate.
In practice the only locks I see have an equine behind it. Early summer we had a spate of vehicles in fields with running dogs after deer. Travelled here from Newcastle >80mls away. Working through the, usually windy, night they left gates open and spoiled crops. Consequently there’s now a lot of roadside gateways with large obstructions within.

Around here (Wales) the farmers have had a lot of trouble with theft of animals and equipment, so security is very high on their aganda. The idea that they might take locks off gates not currently on Rights of Way is not realistic in this climate. A better approach might be to create a mechanism for establishing new Rights of Way where they would plug gaps in the existing network, rather than creating a right of access to each and every field.

[Carlton green]

I fail to see the problem if something is gated. Climb it. Ah, it's too hard on a bike. Well go somewhere easier. Why do we always want the easy way and expect the world to provide it?

It’s a matter of degree. If there is a gate to climb every ten minutes, it’s not a bike ride, it’s an assault course. If there’s one an hour, or maybe every half hour, it’s still a bike ride. As for deer-fence stiles, which are about twelve-feet high, I’m thinking maybe even one of those to cross with a bike might constitute an assault course.

I’m neither interviewing to join the Royal Marines nor as young as I used to be, so doing assault courses with a bike, especially one with luggage on, isn’t what I personally signed up for, so it would be useful to be able to tell from a map whether a route is an assault course, in which case, yes, I’ll go somewhere easier, or not. If you did sign up to do assault courses, super; enjoy it.

Just as a very broad comment. I don’t expect to be able to cycle on footpaths - the name gives the reason why - and to be able to ride on some is a bonus. As they are meant for horses and the like to travel on I do expect to be able to cycle on tracks and bridle paths. High stiles might be necessary but they are also a fall hazard with all of the various implications that that has.

[Carlton green]

[
So are farmers forbidden to put locks on gates? They do that around here to help discourage people letting cattle and sheep out, or stealing them. Or stealing farm machinery. And if they can put locks on gates, you can't be sure which gates will be locked until you get to them, can you? one farm near here (in Wales) has a large piece of farm machinery parked against the inside of a gate to make it hard for night raiders to get into the yard and the barns beyond, where other valuable kit is stored. So that gate, and the tracks beyond (no PROWs) would be inaccessible if this were in Scotland. Would that be allowed?

They can lock any gate they want but if it’s on a core path then there will need to be a kissing gate, stile or hunt gate.
In practice the only locks I see have an equine behind it. Early summer we had a spate of vehicles in fields with running dogs after deer. Travelled here from Newcastle >80mls away. Working through the, usually windy, night they left gates open and spoiled crops. Consequently there’s now a lot of roadside gateways with large obstructions within.

There’s part of the issue, unfortunately someone will always abuse a situation and it only takes a very small number of people to do a lot of damage.

[Nearholmer]

Perhaps we can do a crowd-funding thing to send you off doing a bit of research for us

I have to say that I’m very much in favour of that idea, and would promise to provide a few short notes on my return.

Hotels? I’ve always rather liked the look of those huge posh ones that resemble baronial mansions, have golf courses the size of Rutland, and boast of Michelin starred chefs. I expect that they have bike sheds.

[Paulatic]

Around here (Wales) the farmers have had a lot of trouble with theft of animals and equipment, so security is very high on their aganda. The idea that they might take locks off gates not currently on Rights of Way is not realistic in this climate. A better approach might be to create a mechanism for establishing new Rights of Way where they would plug gaps in the existing network, rather than creating a right of access to each and every field.

Livestock thefts went on for many years in the Northern Pennines. Eventually the offending farmer, a respected Swaledale breeder of many generations, was caught. Closer to home we’ve one farmer constantly reporting stolen sheep often in large numbers. His neighbours are embarrassed and feel accused as none of them have experienced thefts. Neither case puts any RTR in doubt.
Does anyone have the idea farmers need to remove locks in a RTR? I also don’t think a RTR gives you a 'right of access to each and every field'.
I do agree a mechanism to enable filling in of route gaps would be good. Isn’t that what permissive paths have tried to achieve with very little impetus.

[quote=Paulatic post_id=<a href="tel:1731992">1731992</a> time=<a href="tel:1666547015">1666547015</a> user_id=31063]
[quote=pwa post_id=<a href="tel:1731974">1731974</a> time=<a href="tel:1666542356">1666542356</a> user_id=22601]
[
So are farmers forbidden to put locks on gates? They do that around here to help discourage people letting cattle and sheep out, or stealing them. Or stealing farm machinery. And if they can put locks on gates, you can't be sure which gates will be locked until you get to them, can you? one farm near here (in Wales) has a large piece of farm machinery parked against the inside of a gate to make it hard for night raiders to get into the yard and the barns beyond, where other valuable kit is stored. So that gate, and the tracks beyond (no PROWs) would be inaccessible if this were in Scotland. Would that be allowed?

They can lock any gate they want but if it’s on a core path then there will need to be a kissing gate, stile or hunt gate.
In practice the only locks I see have an equine behind it. Early summer we had a spate of vehicles in fields with running dogs after deer. Travelled here from Newcastle >80mls away. Working through the, usually windy, night they left gates open and spoiled crops. Consequently there’s now a lot of roadside gateways with large obstructions within.
[/quote]

There’s part of the issue, unfortunately someone will always abuse a situation and it only takes a very small number of people to do a lot of damage.
[/quote]
Not sure what issue.
The someone in cases mentioned above are criminals and not your average person looking to enjoy the countryside. Do the streets become out of bounds because some Ned is pickpocketing or mugging old ladies?

[Steve X]

The right of ownership is enshrined in the British tradition, whether is is a modest two up and two down terrace house or a 40,000 acre estate, each have their right to protect their property from trespassers.

Absolutely, but I would suggest it is a bad tradition. I also ask how people come into possession of 40,000 acres, and if it is good thing that one person can deny anyone else access to 40,000 acres. Things could and should change IMHO

[Ron]

The situation in areas with enclosed fields sounds as if it might actually present more difficulty than in England.

It might well do, but I'm unaware of any demand for walking around, or through, enclosed fields. I think the vast majority seek paths or tracks in open country.

[Nearholmer]

I'm unaware of any demand for walking around, or through, enclosed fields.

When something isn’t available, it’s perennially difficult to assess the latent demand for it, which leaves uncertainty.

Access provision away from roads in much of Ireland is pretty poor to absent*, so not many people walk or cycle away from roads, but I’d wager that if they could, they would, for instance.

Certainly in England where it is possible, using the footpath and bridleway provision, to walk around and through enclosed fields, people do, lots of them, probably because, in many cases, such routes are much nearer to home, and much less strenuous, than routes through unenclosed upland.

*Coillte (forestry) land and the safe bits of the land owned by Bord na Mona (the state peat extraction company) seem “fair game”, but I’ve never been sure whether they are legally accessible, or that access is tolerated by default, just that I never got thrown out, and any staff encountered have always been friendly.

[Tiggertoo]

The right of ownership is enshrined in the British tradition, whether is is a modest two up and two down terrace house or a 40,000 acre estate, each have their right to protect their property from trespassers.

Absolutely, but I would suggest it is a bad tradition. I also ask how people come into possession of 40,000 acres, and if it is good thing that one person can deny anyone else access to 40,000 acres. Things could and should change IMHO

The same attitude as yours prevailed in Russia early in the 20th century.

[jgurney]

I also ask how people come into possession of 40,000 acres,

According to this source [https://abcfinance.co.uk/blog/who-owns-the-uk/] there are only five individuals, as opposed to corporations, charities, governments depts, etc, who do own over 40k acres of the UK. That three out of this five are dukes suggests inheritance is the most common method. The remaining two are Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum (prime minister of the UAE) and Ander Povlson (Danish businessman, who allows the public access to his Scottish estates).

[pwa]

I'm unaware of any demand for walking around, or through, enclosed fields.

When something isn’t available, it’s perennially difficult to assess the latent demand for it, which leaves uncertainty.

Access provision away from roads in much of Ireland is pretty poor to absent*, so not many people walk or cycle away from roads, but I’d wager that if they could, they would, for instance.

Certainly in England where it is possible, using the footpath and bridleway provision, to walk around and through enclosed fields, people do, lots of them, probably because, in many cases, such routes are much nearer to home, and much less strenuous, than routes through unenclosed upland.

*Coillte (forestry) land and the safe bits of the land owned by Bord na Mona (the state peat extraction company) seem “fair game”, but I’ve never been sure whether they are legally accessible, or that access is tolerated by default, just that I never got thrown out, and any staff encountered have always been friendly.

Here in lowland Wales we walk our dog on Public Footpaths that cross enclosed fields, and we do it every day of the week. The paths have gates and stiles to allow this. The dog is kept on the lead when there is livestock around, but apart from that necessary precaution we just walk those paths without a care. They extend in all directions from our village so we don't feel a need for more paths in more fields, but if we suddenly lost these paths we would really miss them. Among other reasons for using them they give us pleasant routes to the nearby Wales Coast Path and the beaches, and to a block of woodland where the dog likes to run. If we were in Ireland (where my parents once lived) we would have to walk on tarmac to get to those places. But if it were Scotland, with theoretically more free access, would we still have the stiles and pedestrian kissing gates?