People are right to trespass in fight for right to roam in England, says Green MP

[cycle tramp]

Whilst I appreciate the message, I would not support an unfettered right to roam, without further training being given to the public. Too many people 'roam' without understanding that tge countryside is not only a place of beauty and of wildlife, put it also represents the livelihood of farmers...

..two years ago in spring, a local farmer lost four young lambs to dog attacks, these dogs were being exercised on land on which there was no footpath, but the dog owners chose to walk their dogs in the field regardless, and regardless of the young lambs. The resulting deaths, and the vets bills meant that the farmer failed to make any financial gains of that year..

..the same may be said of rubbish, not only is it unsightly, it can cause massive internal injuries to any livestock which is unaware enough to ingest it, or in the case of cans and glass, stand or lie on it. Even a simple call out fee for a vet now costing over 600 pounds in some parts of the country...

..Then there is the issue of biosecurity. Currently there are almost weekly warnings about bird flu from Defra. It's not to hard to image anyone walking in a bird reserve.. then the following weekend driving some 100 or 200 miles to go walking with friends in another part of the country without cleaning the tread of their shoes. By not doing so there is a very real threat that bird flu picked up from the droppings of birds in one area, is then carried on the sole of a walking shoe to a different area, perhaps infecting wild birds in this new area which might also then result in the culling of domestic fowl in that area.

..I am not against the right to roam, however those that do so carry a greater burden of responsibility than perhaps they are currently aware of..

[Carlton green]

I can but only concur with cycletramp above. The way that some people use the countryside and ‘their rights’ is so irresponsible to others that giving such people rights ends up being a backward step for society. I live in a rural community, do talk to some local landowners, do keep my eyes open and do see the selfish stuff that some folk get up to. As I walk my dog along paths in my local park and the streets adjoining I often pick up pieces of litter and deposit them a few hundred yards later in a public rubbish bin. As I walk in the woods I see signs of where some adventure type person has made a shelter, such people should leave the woods as they found them.

A farming friend used to have a Dairy Herd but it got infected by TB which caused him a crippling loss of income, foot & mouth in earlier years was a great strain too. The Ministry of Agriculture put the TB down to walkers and their dogs bringing infection onto the land and certainly not picking up after your own animal can introduce disease to a farmer’s livestock. Likewise littering leaves items which can and too often do cause both injury to livestock and significant financial loss to a farmer.

Of course not all land-owners are saints and not all people using the countryside are sinners but one has to be mindful of both types of people. Right to roam, yes I’d like it but I accept that responsibilities come with rights whereas too many other people do not. There is no easy way forward on this issue that is both simple and good; as ever some people will abuse the situation for short term personal pleasure or gain and the rest of us suffer for their stupidity and selfishness. As in my earlier post social education is the answer but people do have to understand what they are being taught and then adopt the necessary way of living …

[Nearholmer]

My instinct is that the problem of disrespect for the natural (you know what I mean) environment is a function of divorce from it, leading to ignorance of it, and the way to bring-up a generation who do respect it is “carefully controlled exposure” during childhood.

No good completely entrusting that task to parents, because in many cases they can’t afford the time and money for it, or genuinely have little clue themselves, or have zero motivation to do it, so lots of ‘school outings’ and lots of ‘school weeks away in the country’, with a focus on genuinely understanding non-urban places.

How about “school swaps”, because ignorance and fear of cities, with attendant prejudice against, is as deep in the minds of a lot of people who live in rural areas, who love to complain about “townies” and in many cases still don’t quite ‘get the idea’ of non-white British people.

An extension programme would be “pensioner swaps”, because if there is a group prone to hold hardened views of “others” it is pensioners. I suggest busing in both directions, with compulsory three month spells in unfamiliar environments as a condition of receipt of the state pension. Urban and rural hostels could be built, for use of both children and pensioners, perhaps mixing the two groups with the aim of breaking down a further set of social barriers.

[Paulatic]

This thread and another, Revolution Way in Norfolk, highlights what a mess access laws appear to be in England. When I visit I ignore your trespass signs and walk / ride to Scottish standards. Yes I’ve met grumpy landowners and farmers but most seem to get that way because they think they should, not for any valid reason. On one memorable occasion though I did meet a toff who certainly wasn’t prepared to give ground. I gave him my name and address and invited him to take me to court. Of course I heard nothing.
We don’t close the motorways because people speed and likewise with access. Like the Highway Code here we have the Scottish Outdoor Access Code https://www.outdooraccess-scotland.scot/. Note it’s opinion on bird flu recommending not to touch any dead birds and recognising migratory birds as the biggest risk.
For dogs we’ve recently beefed up the law 'Protection of Livestock' https://www.parliament.scot/bills-and-l ... tland-bill
I know we are in inflationary times but before I retired a veterinary call out fee for our farm in the 25ml band was £30. Obviously the bill wracks up from that point. I really can’t believe a practice could charge £600 call out unless it’s in Harley Street
It’s good some of you are speaking with farmers but I’ve said before, on a Cornwall access issue thread, don’t drink in all their hardship stories as gospel. I’m with the Green MP you need to challenge some of these issues. I watched something on YouTube a couple of days ago where, unless you lodge a concern with your LA you could be in line to loose even more access by 2026.

[Paulatic]

An extension programme would be “pensioner swaps”, because if there is a group prone to hold hardened views of “others” it is pensioners. I suggest busing in both directions, with compulsory three month spells in unfamiliar environments as a condition of receipt of the state pension. Urban and rural hostels could be built, for use of both children and pensioners, perhaps mixing the two groups with the aim of breaking down a further set of social barriers.

On yer bike!
If you think sentencing me to death with 3 months in a city is a vote catcher think again

[Nearholmer]

Bit of a misunderstanding: there’ll be no vote on this one; it’ll just happen; no pension without cultural re-education.

I do attempt, hopefully humorously, to make a real point though. Ignorance, fear, and loathing cut both ways, and some of the deepest ignorance, fear, and loathing comes from rural dwellers towards towns and “townies”, especially, dare I say it, young non-white townies.

[simonhill]

Can't wait till we restrict access to our beaches like they restrict access to their countryside.

I suspect we suffer far more. Unrestrained crowds, litter, dogs, picking shellfish and add to that all your poo washed into our sea.

Stay at home and leave us in peace.

[Bmblbzzz]

The issue of access is really one symptom of the issue of ownership.

[Carlton green]

Bit of a misunderstanding: there’ll be no vote on this one; it’ll just happen; no pension without cultural re-education.

I do attempt, hopefully humorously, to make a real point though. Ignorance, fear, and loathing cut both ways, and some of the deepest ignorance, fear, and loathing comes from rural dwellers towards towns and “townies”, especially, dare I say it, young non-white townies.

Isn’t that statement or concept itself routed in prejudice and preconceived ideas? The rural population here are certainly no strangers to migrant workers from overseas, English is not necessarily the language heard in our local school playgrounds and many locals are also poor too. Other residents like myself grew up in and worked in Towns and Cities that were very much culturally diverse and we still meet cultural diversity when returning to such places. People in the Cities tend to live in overlapping urban pockets of similar people (birds of a feather flock together), well that’s my observation, whereas folk in the country (well certainly where I live) meet and ‘rub shoulders’ with a surprisingly broad spread of people.

[Nearholmer]

Isn’t that statement or concept itself routed in prejudice and preconceived ideas?

No. It’s based in experience. I grew-up in a small rural town, worked for forty years in London and the suburbs, live in a city, but have always had hobbies that have taken me into the country, and the amount of ignorance, fear, loathing, downright snobbery, unfamiliarity-based-stereotyping, and chip-on-the-shoulder envy directed towards “townies” that I’ve heard in widespread rural places far outweighs the converse I’ve heard in urban areas. In fact, I’m not sure I’ve ever heard an urban dweller “point the finger” at rural dwellers based on place, class/poshness yes, but I’ve never heard ordinary rural people being demonised by ordinary urban people.

Outside of “nice” middle-class people, who tend to some degree to span both, there is quite a gulf of mutual incomprehension between rural and urban people, which manifests itself in things like the lunatic fringe of the “countryside alliance”, and urban dwellers despoiling bits of ruralshire on day trips.

This is a bit out of date now, but a worthwhile read https://ukandeu.ac.uk/brexit-and-public ... iscontent/

[Tiggertoo]

The right of ownership is enshrined in the British tradition, whether is is a modest two up and two down terrace house or a 40,000 acre estate, each have their right to protect their property from trespassers.

[Bmblbzzz]

A caravan?

[mattheus]

This is all part of the myth that the large land owners promulgate, by conflating their huge estates and normal peoples gardens. In countries with much better land access such as some Nordic countries one has a right of access and to camp pretty much anywhere, but it does come with certain responsibilities and one cannot camp within a certain distance of dwelling and no one is suggesting that people can traipse through ordinary gardens.

That sounds like a very sensible compromise set of rules!

[Tiggertoo]

A caravan?

Absolutely! Where do you park it? And more importantly, can you get the bike inside?

[Bmblbzzz]

A caravan?

Absolutely! Where do you park it? And more importantly, can you get the bike inside?

In the context of property rights, "where do you park it?" is the relevant question. Where should a van used as a dwelling be parked?