People are right to trespass in fight for right to roam in England, says Green MP

[Tiggertoo]

A caravan?

Absolutely! Where do you park it? And more importantly, can you get the bike inside?

In the context of property rights, "where do you park it?" is the relevant question. Where should a van used as a dwelling be parked?

Probably wherever the horse wants to stop for the night - in a lay-by?

[Bmblbzzz]

How quaint!

Not many van dwellers with horses for the last half century at least.

[Tiggertoo]

How quaint!

Not many van dwellers with horses for the last half century at least.

At about the same period when a trespasser could be hanged on a gibbet at the cross roads and a socialist could be sentenced to transportation to the far flung colonies - or was it the other way round?

Ah! Those magically blissful halcyon days.

[Bmblbzzz]

Channelling the ghost of Robert Johnson.

[Nearholmer]

There’s a horse-drawn bow-top living van in our local museum, which I remember arriving in town, with horse and mobile-resident owners, in the early 1980s. IIRC the owners were a quite young couple, and I have a feeling that the van is a modern conversion of a farm cart, but they’d been living in it for some years.

I also saw one, again with horse and family, encamped on the royal estate at sandringham about two or three years ago - seemed as if they were being tolerated on grounds of picturesqueness. I think MJR lives thereabouts, so may know more.

[Zulu Eleven]

Timely:

https://www.cyclinguk.org/blog/dartmoor ... bound-1998

[Mike Sales]

I do not think it is trespassers who shoot any raptor which might predate the game birds that landowners like to kill themselves, after rearing them for the guns.

Several incidents involving birds of prey dying at Sandringham have been investigated but no culprits have been identified. The tale has all the ingredients of a good detective novel: poisonings, vanishing evidence, many suspects and recriminations. But this real-life murder mystery is now casting a shadow over the Queen’s estate.

This year, a goshawk perished on the estate and its body was incinerated. This episode followed an incident two years ago when a Montagu’s harrier which had been fitted with a tracking device disappeared over the estate. Prior to that there were reports of two hen harriers, which face extinction, being blasted out of the sky over the estate. Prince Harry and his friend William van Cutsem, who were shooting duck and pigeon nearby, were later questioned by the police but denied any knowledge of the incident, as did a gamekeeper at Sandringham.

https://www.littlepeckers.co.uk/s/who-i ... ham-estate

Who is killing birds at Sandringham? I doubt it is those trespassing plebs.

These big landowners are not the guardians of wildlife they pretend to be.

[simonhill]

Don't think it's been mentioned, but something I read on my newsfeed a few days ago.

Some new very rich land owners on Dartmoor want the right to wild camp to be rescinded. Gets in the way if their shooting.

[pwa]

Caroline Lucas will table bill which would extend countryside access to woods and green belt

People across England are right to trespass to stand up for their right to roam, Caroline Lucas has said.

The Green MP will table a bill later in October to allow the public to access woodlands and the green belt in the same way they can currently walk on the coast path.

Currently, the Countryside and Rights of Way (CRoW) Act 2000 gives a legal right of public access to about 8% of England, including mountains, moorland, heaths, some downland and commons, alongside the more recently created England coast path.

Campaigners have asked for this to be extended to cover rivers, woods and green belt land. Ninety-seven per cent of rivers are currently off-limits to the public, and tens of thousands of acres of woodland have benefited from public subsidy, yet remain publicly inaccessible.

Though her campaign sounds radical, Lucas says it is not in reality such a big ask. Talking to the Guardian shortly before launching the bill, Lucas said: “I think if the measures in the bill were to go through, instead of having access to only 8% of English land, we’d be coming up to somewhere near around 30%. So it’s a very modest ask.”

She points out that the bill has important ramifications for inequality. The majority of people who cannot access nature nearby are people in low-income areas who don’t have a car, which is necessary to get to most nature reserves. Those areas also tend to have fewer trees and smaller gardens.

But Conservative ministers say that while this may sound like an attractive idea, they are concerned about the public causing disruption to rural businesses and littering. Lucas says the argument around the so-called irresponsible public is a “distraction”.

“I think it’s a very easy way of trying to close down the conversation. It’s not your wild swimmers who are polluting the rivers and it’s not your people who are exercising the right to roam that are leaving massive decaying bits of equipment, you know, hidden away in woodlands and so forth.”

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... line-lucas

It is an interesting debate and I'm glad to see there is still some life in it. One good thing you can say about England and Wales is that we have Rights of Way across much of our countryside, something that is absent in many developed nations. Looking for increases in our access to countryside is definitely something worth persuing. I know the canoeing fraternity will welcome this discussion.

But I suggest that people think carefully before trespassing, because there is a lot of rural crime going on and farmers are a bit on edge about who is in the top field and what are they up to. One of our local farmers has had a valuable ram stolen from a field recently. He is a nice bloke and he would probably feel the need to rush over to check if he saw someone on land with no Public Right of Way, just to make sure it wasn't another theft going on.

[Paulatic]

Don't think it's been mentioned, but something I read on my newsfeed a few days ago.

Some new very rich land owners on Dartmoor want the right to wild camp to be rescinded. Gets in the way if their shooting.

It’s in the 'Wild Camping' thread.

[Paulatic]

[
But I suggest that people think carefully before trespassing, because there is a lot of rural crime going on and farmers are a bit on edge about who is in the top field and what are they up to. One of our local farmers has had a valuable ram stolen from a field recently. He is a nice bloke and he would probably feel the need to rush over to check if he saw someone on land with no Public Right of Way, just to make sure it wasn't another theft going on.

I recall when the Pennine Bridleway was proposed one argument used against it from the Tory MP for Penrith was it would open up remote areas for crime. There should be ten years of evidence to back that up now but IME the closer you are to urban areas the more crime you get. The villains, that are caught, in my own area are usually from at least 50 miles away. They didn’t cycle/walk here.
You’ll have to excuse the cynic In me, it’s been cultivated with over 50 years experience, but if in October a farmer said a tup had been stolen my thoughts in order 1) It’s a high sex driven time of year could have wandered miles. 2) It’s laid dead somewhere or washed away in recent floods. 3) It’s could be stolen, who would want it? Another farmer or a hiker.
I suggest the sooner you stop thinking about it as trespass and access responsibly the sooner farmers will get used to it. They’ll hone their skills and not pester the innocent but identify the suspicious.
When you park your bike up in a town or city do you leave it somewhere you think no one goes or somewhere people are passing in the hope they’ll see suspicious activity.

[pwa]

[
But I suggest that people think carefully before trespassing, because there is a lot of rural crime going on and farmers are a bit on edge about who is in the top field and what are they up to. One of our local farmers has had a valuable ram stolen from a field recently. He is a nice bloke and he would probably feel the need to rush over to check if he saw someone on land with no Public Right of Way, just to make sure it wasn't another theft going on.

I recall when the Pennine Bridleway was proposed one argument used against it from the Tory MP for Penrith was it would open up remote areas for crime. There should be ten years of evidence to back that up now but IME the closer you are to urban areas the more crime you get. The villains, that are caught, in my own area are usually from at least 50 miles away. They didn’t cycle/walk here.
You’ll have to excuse the cynic In me, it’s been cultivated with over 50 years experience, but if in October a farmer said a tup had been stolen my thoughts in order 1) It’s a high sex driven time of year could have wandered miles. 2) It’s laid dead somewhere or washed away in recent floods. 3) It’s could be stolen, who would want it? Another farmer or a hiker.
I suggest the sooner you stop thinking about it as trespass and access responsibly the sooner farmers will get used to it. They’ll hone their skills and not pester the innocent but identify the suspicious.
When you park your bike up in a town or city do you leave it somewhere you think no one goes or somewhere people are passing in the hope they’ll see suspicious activity.

The ram that went was one of four, and a chain had been broken to get it. Rams can cost over a thousand pounds. We know the farmer and he is trustworthy. What I'm saying is that if he saw, or a neighbour saw, a stranger crossing land that had no right of way, he would be anxious in case it was another theft going on. He'd have to trudge over to investigate. He's not the sort to get annoyed at ramblers or people out to fly a kite. But he will be on edge with his losses.

[Mike Sales]

One good thing you can say about England and Wales is that we have Rights of Way across much of our countryside, something that is absent in many developed nations.

Up to a point. The registration of RoW was far from comprehensive.
More enlightened developed nations, like Scotland and the Scandis, have a Right to Roam we should be copying.
Have the dire predictions of landowners come true north of the border?

[Nearholmer]

Where there is very widespread RTR, Scotland for instance, are there also bridleways?

I ask, because, as I said way above, a universal RTR would be a negative step in terms of practical cyclability in the countryside if it came along with the disappearance of landowners’ obligations around bridleways (and, similar considerations apply to footpath obligations).

[Mike Sales]

Where there is very widespread RTR, Scotland for instance, are there also bridleways?

I ask, because, as I said way above, a universal RTR would be a negative step in terms of practical cyclability in the countryside if it came along with the disappearance of landowners’ obligations around bridleways (and, similar considerations apply to footpath obligations).

How is that working out in Scotland?

One consideration for landowners might be that cyclists and walkers would prefer to keep to a decent path, rather than have to make their own routes. This would probably suit the landowners too.