Sustrans signs showing time instead of distance

[Postboxer]

There's a slight problem if the time is really too long, that a non-cyclist might see the sign, see how long Sustrans expects a cyclist can do the journey, then they might already know how long it takes to drive the same journey, then they might suppose it would take them longer than stated on the sign, as a new cyclist if they took up cycling, then looking at the now huge disparity in times think that it's not even worth giving cycling a go.

[PH]

I’ve felt that Sustrans have done some questionable things in the past, but this is completely bonkers!

I've seen it done more in France and Spain, are they all bonkers!

[mumbojumbo]

Time and distance together might work-alternatively you could enumerate the number of calories needed to cycle the distance.

[tim-b]

It's come from Jacob Rees-Mogg's office and saves a lot of worry over miles or km. The choice was either time or penny-farthing wheel rotations

[GrahamJ]

I found the sign on Google maps, made a route at cycle.travel and got 5.2km and 170m climbing. 30mins seems a good guess for a typical cyclist. (I use 3min/km + 1min/10m ascent so 32mins for me.)

[mjr]

I’ve felt that Sustrans have done some questionable things in the past, but this is completely bonkers!

This signage is DfT (permitting it and maybe using it on "trunk" roads) and county-level councils (using it on other roads), not Sustrans. Sustrans are only the NCN route numbering authority and sometimes volunteers to help fund or maintain some signs. They are unlikely responsible for that example.

Timed signs are widely used in London. From memory, Cambridge is all distances, MK has neither and Bristol area (CUBA) is a mix. Is there any evidence why one approach is better than another?

[Psamathe]

I’ve felt that Sustrans have done some questionable things in the past, but this is completely bonkers!

This signage is DfT (permitting it and maybe using it on "trunk" roads) and county-level councils (using it on other roads), not Sustrans. Sustrans are only the NCN route numbering authority and sometimes volunteers to help fund or maintain some signs. They are unlikely responsible for that example.

Timed signs are widely used in London. From memory, Cambridge is all distances, MK has neither and Bristol area (CUBA) is a mix. Is there any evidence why one approach is better than another?

For me it's that distance will be correct whereas times will be wrong (for virtually all cyclists).

I can only assume that timed signs are targeted at new cyclists as some sort of encouragement and I'd be asking for some evidence that such signage encourages new cyclists.

Ian

[Bmblbzzz]

I don't think there's any evidence the times are targeted at new cyclists, or indeed anyone.

[Cugel]

There's a slight problem if the time is really too long, that a non-cyclist might see the sign, see how long Sustrans expects a cyclist can do the journey, then they might already know how long it takes to drive the same journey, then they might suppose it would take them longer than stated on the sign, as a new cyclist if they took up cycling, then looking at the now huge disparity in times think that it's not even worth giving cycling a go.

Yes, yes! The potential new cyclists must be attracted at any and all costs, as otherwise we'll all be dead of a terrible combination of couch-sores and junkfud-bloat. So .....

At the start of any sustrans route (and also along the way, perhaps at each mile/minute/hill/etc.) they should have a warden who will interrogate the new cyclists then apply an algorithm that calculates their calorie output (rate & total) to the next warden, ensuring that the cyclist power rate and glycogen levels are optimum. The time taken by the warden interrogations and calcs will slow the journey to a pace that even the most nocvicey of novice cyclists can sustain, whilst the long chats about their breakfast and health-history will distract them from noticing how long they've been attempting to traverse the sussy-route.

Wardens may also be trained in psychological techniques and motivation modes so that they can encourage a flagging novice to attempt the next stage of the route. Also, brow-wiping clothes and bribe-cakes could be provided at each warden station, along with achievement badges. "I cycled for 9 minutes on route 8371!"

For those novices still overcome by having to push some pedals 'round for a bit, a taxi service (with bike carrier) could run up and down the route on a parallel road made for the purpose.

Cycling will never be any good until this proper cycling infrastructure is built!

Cugel, imagining cycling utopia version 289f.

[Psamathe]

There's a slight problem if the time is really too long, that a non-cyclist might see the sign, see how long Sustrans expects a cyclist can do the journey, then they might already know how long it takes to drive the same journey, then they might suppose it would take them longer than stated on the sign, as a new cyclist if they took up cycling, then looking at the now huge disparity in times think that it's not even worth giving cycling a go.

Or if it's too short a new cyclist might feel discouraged about them having taken 30 mins against a signed 15 mins. They may feel they really are not up to this cycling lark so wont join a group as they are too slow, etc.

And for 99% of cyclists the signs will be too long or too short.

Ian

[Psamathe]

... apply an algorithm that calculates their calorie output (rate & total) to the next warden, ensuring that the cyclist power rate and glycogen levels are optimum. ...

Aspects of that would probably be really encouraging for new cyclists. Sign in Calories, maybe kcal to next cafe. So they'll not be feeling guilty when they consume that chocolate gateau on arrival.

Ian

[Cugel]

... apply an algorithm that calculates their calorie output (rate & total) to the next warden, ensuring that the cyclist power rate and glycogen levels are optimum. ...

Aspects of that would probably be really encouraging for new cyclists. Sign in Calories, maybe kcal to next cafe. So they'll not be feeling guilty when they consume that chocolate gateau on arrival.

Ian

You have found the perfect indicating metric! "To Upper Bogus - 2.3 slices of Mrs Kippered treacle tart". "To Under Sawrey - 1.7 fully-curved ripe bananas".

Cugel, lobbying for "Number of Mrs Cugel's date&figgy slices"

[PH]

And for 99% of cyclists the signs will be too long or too short.
Ian

Well yes, but by how much? The difference is speeds between all the cyclists I see on paths every day is minimal, I think +/- 10% is going to be quite typical, with the majority of cyclists a bit faster than the signs indicate. If the sign is displaying hours that difference might be significant, but for something up to 30 min that's likely to be within 5 min for the majority, and I'd be surprised if it was over 10 for any, that's close enough IMO. There will be a minority that can smash that time, they'll know that after they've done it once and such riders are probably less likely to be on these routes.

[mattheus]

For me it's that distance will be correct whereas times will be wrong (for virtually all cyclists).

The distance will not be correct: it might - we hope - be accurate within some tolerance.
We don't know the tolerance, even if there is one.

[Psamathe]

For me it's that distance will be correct whereas times will be wrong (for virtually all cyclists).

The distance will not be correct: it might - we hope - be accurate within some tolerance.
We don't know the tolerance, even if there is one.

Me thinks you are splitting hairs. Any measurement is technically wrong. I use a digital micrometer and the measurement is wrong.

Ian