Cycling UK Forum

arnsider wrote: ↑27 Oct 2022, 7:54pm This is an interesting thread, not least because it exposes what I think is a drawback in the social rides that many CTC branches do.
There has to be room, even on social rides, for anybody to stop and take in the view, or just to see whatever catches your attention.
Just to take a short break from the saddle, perhaps after a stiff climb, is something that often gets frowned upon or is simply ignored in the haste to get on. It is this philosophy that unfortunately makes social cycling an exclusive pursuit that does prevent lots of people from joining.
As well as my CTC membership and participation in club rides, I belong to a Potholing Club that has quite a number of older members who no longer climb or go underground. We have a monthly cycle ride and a monthly walk, often going away camping or hostelling.
We certainly put the miles in, both on the Fells and awheel, but our exploits are leisurely and we often take brewing gear for a lunchtime cuppa. During the summer, there is never that imperative to get back for tea, so we ride into the evening, weather permitting.
It's even been known for us to crash out for a nap en route and on the hottest of days, a dip in the river.
I was never a competitive rider and just do not fit into the mould of the peloton.

Not really, because different people enjoy different styles of riding. Some actively dislike stopping to "take in the view" but don't want, or aren't able, to cycle competitively, so enjoy a social ride that rides not too fast but just rides. Probably most people are capable of enjoying various sorts of riding under various conditions. There is value in stopping and in not stopping, so there is value in CTC groups and similar doing both – as they do. CTC Bristol is currently doing rides every weekend which are basically "local history tours" on bikes.

arnsider wrote: ↑27 Oct 2022, 7:54pm This is an interesting thread, not least because it exposes what I think is a drawback in the social rides that many CTC branches do.
There has to be room, even on social rides, for anybody to stop and take in the view, or just to see whatever catches your attention.
Just to take a short break from the saddle, perhaps after a stiff climb, is something that often gets frowned upon or is simply ignored in the haste to get on. It is this philosophy that unfortunately makes social cycling an exclusive pursuit that does prevent lots of people from joining.......

Just so. Our CTC Easy Rides are so categorised only by distance - pterrain etc irrelevant. If group has to stop at hill top for slower riders to catch up then as soon as all arrive lead restarts, when by definition the back markers need a breather!
Ride to cafe as non-stop as possible, snack, ride back. Beyond my capabilities these days so I solo to and from venues just for the chat.
The "Easy" rides are very popular, but mainly by those who also can and do the 70-100 miles hard rides. Don't seem to attract many newcomers/starters.

If you ask people who tour alone and again with someone else they find riding with someone else restricts them from stopping when doing what they want when they want to. Then having to do what the other person wants to when they want to. So I don’t think you have the same freedom riding with other people. Then again maybe it’s just me being antisocial

crossy wrote: ↑27 Oct 2022, 11:03pm If you ask people who tour alone and again with someone else they find riding with someone else restricts them from stopping when doing what they want when they want to. Then having to do what the other person wants to when they want to. So I don’t think you have the same freedom riding with other people. Then again maybe it’s just me being antisocial

As they say, ‘one man’s meat is another man’s poison’. When on a club ride I almost always enjoy it, but pick your group with care and accept the consensus there. It’s rare that I ride with a club though, these days I want - need even - more flexibility in what I’m doing and when I’m doing. One size doesn’t suit all - of course my ‘size’ should be fit others too but because of their imperfections it doesn’t .

Just so. Our CTC Easy Rides are so categorised only by distance - pterrain etc irrelevant. If group has to stop at hill top for slower riders to catch up then as soon as all arrive lead restarts, when by definition the back markers need a breather!
Ride to cafe as non-stop as possible, snack, ride back. Beyond my capabilities these days so I solo to and from venues just for the chat.
The "Easy" rides are very popular, but mainly by those who also can and do the 70-100 miles hard rides. Don't seem to attract many newcomers/starters.

I’m of the view that easy rides should be just that and that to ensure some degree of comfortable pace some handicap for the fit and fast is needed. As a suggestion ask the folk who both ride large mileages and join in with the easy rides to come to the easy rides on a bike with a single chainwheel and a limited gear range - let it be a proud badge of excellence. A strong rider can still cover a lot of distance on either a three speed hub or a 14 - 28 ‘freewheel’ - and enjoyably so - and holding the strong back to nearer the pace of weaker and/or less experienced riders has a lot of merit. Believing that the new rider will be pulled along by the pack and soon get the hang of things isn’t helpful and isn’t inclusive.

Our club has a somewhat simpler “holding back” mechanism for gentle rides, so as to ensure inclusivity: the ride leader.

When in charge of a gentle ride, they will chide and correct anyone who gets carried away, and will absolutely ensure that if anyone looks to be flagging a bit, things are slowed down accordingly. A cunning trick one ride leader used to use (unfortunately she’s retired from the role now) was to find a very safe and hilly section en-route and have a little “individual” section, where people set off one at a time about three minutes apart. She would set people off in descending order of fitness/power, and it allowed the fastest to burn off some of their excess energy, and get some adrenaline buzz by using it as a time trial, and it was a brilliant way of building a sense of confidence and personal achievement in newcomers. Her gentle rides were universally popular, attracting complete newbies and super-fit triathletes out for the sociability, and were the only road ones I’d go on, because I’m a “stop and investigate if anything looks interesting” merchant who finds churning along looking at the person in front’s rump mightily uninteresting.

Mention of CTC Bristol. In fact, they were the first CTC crowd I went with in around 2000. We stayed at Exford Youth Hostel and had two quite gruelling days. Saturday down to Hells Mouth and back up the steep climbs to Parracombe and Simmonsdbath, then Sunday down to Dulverton with the equally hard climbs back over Marsh and Winsford Hills. I rode my brand new Thorn Nomad and remember the embarrassment of coming out of the cleats on the Parracombe climb. I have to say that at the time I didn't feel particularly welcomed or accommodated.

Our club has a somewhat simpler “holding back” mechanism for gentle rides, so as to ensure inclusivity: the ride leader.

That’s the thing though isn’t it, you’re dependent on the skills, authority and attitudes of whoever happens to be the ride leader - not an easy role - and some riders will always want to use their 110” gear and have a 20” one too for breezing up the hills. If the fit and fast turn up on say a three speed bike then that’s a constant and passive constraint on them for the benefit of all. We’ve all felt the wind on our back, the wings on our wheels and gone speeding off, it’s just natural to do so, but sometimes even folk as virtuous as us need holding back a bit - so there’s little hope for the rest of them .

Carlton green wrote: ↑28 Oct 2022, 10:22am

Our club has a somewhat simpler “holding back” mechanism for gentle rides, so as to ensure inclusivity: the ride leader.

That’s the thing though isn’t it, you’re dependent on the skills, authority and attitudes of whoever happens to be the ride leader - not an easy role - and some riders will always want to use their 110” gear and have a 20” one too for breezing up the hills. If the fit and fast turn up on say a three speed bike then that’s a constant and passive constraint on them for the benefit of all. We’ve all felt the wind on our back, the wings on our wheels and gone speeding off, it’s just natural to do so, but sometimes even folk as virtuous as us need holding back a bit - so there’s little hope for the rest of them .

My own long ago experience of CTC rides was that those taking part were largely ignorant of all of the riding-together conventions and traditions of those clubs more focussed on cycling rather than going somewhere for the scenery or a certain cake. I spent decades going out with a racing club, the rides of which encompassed a wide range of abilities but which always stayed together and adapted to those less rapid than the first & second cats. The CTC folk seemed unable to gather themselves into a coherent group that cycled together, accommodating one to another, so straggled, stopped and otherwise buggered about no-end.

A great part of this is following the "rules" for riding together and allowing those less fit than the most fit to have more rests in the bunch; or setting a slightly slower pace at the front; and waiting at the tops of hills if necessary (not usual if the pace was set right).

But the main trick is to organise, for yourself, different group ride types with folk who are content to be adaptable; or to go elsewhere if they want to either race about at top speed, pooter about with lots of stops or anything in between. Myself, I often went out on solo or teeny-group rides with folk of very similar fitness, if I wanted to go at "my pace". But I greatly enjoyed the other club rides with faster folk (you get a great training effect trying to keep up) and with slower folk (plenty of time to look up at the scenery whilst buzzing along well below max effort).

In short, join the groups (or make them) to suit what you want to do and forget about expecting the world and his wife to adapt themselves solely to your wants and needs. But if you find some willing to adapt to your pace, take up their offer whilst trying to adapt to theirs. Just avoid the chain gangs; or the dawdlers more interested in aspects other than actually riding the bike.

Of course, many modern folk have swallowed the individualista pill and can no longer adapt to anything but "what me-my-I wants now".

Cugel, a cycling socialist (sometimes).

Ride leaders do have a very responsible, in multiple senses, and occasionally difficult job, and I have great admiration for their dedication. They are also the subject of “rider feedback” in the group I belong to, and very rarely there is a little storm in a teacup about pace having been allowed to drift upward from that advertised for the ride, which The Club Captain then sorts out, but far more frequent, daily in fact, are public declarations of thanks and praise for the ride leaders on Facebook (sorry to drag in that evil tech Cugel).

Nearholmer wrote: ↑20 Oct 2022, 8:17am Very well put.

The “no pushing” norm is fairly new, in that I can recall it being quite normal to see people pushing bikes up steep bits, of which there are plenty where I grew-up, when I was a boy, and as a teenager I felt dead clever because I didn’t have to push anywhere locally. I think the move from cycling being primarily a utility, to it being primarily a sport/exercise is what flipped the norm, coinciding as it did with the arrival of zillion-geared mountain bikes.

I think it depends on the type of cycling & with whom. Also what you mean by new in the last 50 years?

I certainly would have been given crap if I'd walked up a hill on a club run, or with the sporty types I trained with years ago.

On the other hand, only a tiny minority would expect a utility cyclist to never walk up a hill, especially with children or shopping, riding an upright or 3 speed bike, etc.

Charity rides usually see some, or most participants walk up a hill or two (Ditchling Beacon on the London - Brighton BHF ride being a well known example)

arnsider wrote: ↑28 Oct 2022, 9:42am Mention of CTC Bristol. In fact, they were the first CTC crowd I went with in around 2000. We stayed at Exford Youth Hostel and had two quite gruelling days. Saturday down to Hells Mouth and back up the steep climbs to Parracombe and Simmonsdbath, then Sunday down to Dulverton with the equally hard climbs back over Marsh and Winsford Hills. I rode my brand new Thorn Nomad and remember the embarrassment of coming out of the cleats on the Parracombe climb. I have to say that at the time I didn't feel particularly welcomed or accommodated.

I wasn't around back then but I can have a guess at a few people might have been in charge. That's a tour situation though, where everyone has to get from one place to the next accommodation by a certain time – rather different to a day ride, which can and often does allow for an impromptu pub stop on the way back.

Nearholmer wrote: ↑28 Oct 2022, 8:47am A cunning trick one ride leader used to use (unfortunately she’s retired from the role now) was to find a very safe and hilly section en-route and have a little “individual” section, where people set off one at a time about three minutes apart. She would set people off in descending order of fitness/power, and it allowed the fastest to burn off some of their excess energy, and get some adrenaline buzz by using it as a time trial, and it was a brilliant way of building a sense of confidence and personal achievement in newcomers.

How did this work? The fastest and fittest set off first, burning some energy and getting KoMs, and then.... how did they know where to stop? Presumably it was some obvious and easily described spot. And then they waited till everyone else had arrived. Would it not have made more sense to send the least fit off first, so everyone arrived at roughly the same time? Or was the idea to force the fastest to choose between holding themselves back and waiting?

Bmblbzzz wrote: ↑28 Oct 2022, 12:39pm

Nearholmer wrote: ↑28 Oct 2022, 8:47am A cunning trick one ride leader used to use (unfortunately she’s retired from the role now) was to find a very safe and hilly section en-route and have a little “individual” section, where people set off one at a time about three minutes apart. She would set people off in descending order of fitness/power, and it allowed the fastest to burn off some of their excess energy, and get some adrenaline buzz by using it as a time trial, and it was a brilliant way of building a sense of confidence and personal achievement in newcomers.

How did this work? The fastest and fittest set off first, burning some energy and getting KoMs, and then.... how did they know where to stop? Presumably it was some obvious and easily described spot. And then they waited till everyone else had arrived. Would it not have made more sense to send the least fit off first, so everyone arrived at roughly the same time? Or was the idea to force the fastest to choose between holding themselves back and waiting?

That's exactly what I was thinking!!

A vaguely similar trick (which I stole from a Welsh internet post somewhere/sometime) is hill catchup/repeats.

You all set off at the same time, but the fast riders are encouraged to "smash it", and when they summit, freewheel down to rejoin at the back of the group. (thus having to repeat at least some of the climb).
In a perfect world, you are all equally knackered at the top.

How did this work?

1) Select suitably quiet hilly bit.

2) Nominate a safe re-gathering point well known to the bod going first.

3) Send off fastest bod.

4) Send-off others in rough descending order of speed/experience.

5) Ride leader sweeps, perhaps also coaching or encouraging any real newbies, who often lack self-belief or technique about hill-climbing.

6) Re-gather, brief on next section, proceed.

Why not send the fastest last, or all start at the same time? Because real newbies or the least fit might expire, or slow-to a crawl, half-way and get caught-up, causing a snarl-up that could then become an inconvenience or hazard if motor vehicles came along in either direction. The psychology seemed to work too, in that the least able would get the biggest round of applause when they got to the ‘finish’.

To encourage newbies in an Inclusive fashion, these things absolutely must not be about competition with others, only about testing oneself, because that competitive stuff is what puts many people off. The rides I’m thinking of were deliberately timed so that parents of school aged children could get to the meet after dropping the kids off, and be back in good time to collect them, so they attracted quite a lot of “mums” who very definitely would have been put off by a load of testosterone-fuelled racing.

Applause for finishing makes sense. Though also can imply "you've just done something amazing" rather than "you've just done something that you can do again".

How many people would typically be in these groups and how long were the sections? Standing around waiting for others can get quite chilly in non-summer.