Is the legal standard for rear lights fit for purpose?

[Nearholmer]

Having courted controversy in the thread about a recent death by dangerous driving case by saying that I agreed with the expert witness (for the defence, I assume) who said that a single, steady rear bike light was “less than ideal” from a visibility perspective, can I ask whether people think the current legal minimum standards for cycle rear lights are adequate, and if not what people think is adequate?

Without getting into “ideal”, which IMO is a bit of a strange criterion to attempt to apply anyway, I will say that my personal perspective is that a single, steady rear bike light can be difficult to pick-out and identify as a bike when viewed against a background of darkness and numerous other tail lights on other vehicles, and could be bettered by using one flashing (to shout “bike”) and one steady (to aid judgement of distance), which I know some use already.

[Jdsk]

Recent discussion which started with B+M Linetec and moved on to visibility and recognition:
viewtopic.php?t=153258

Jonathan

[irc]

Personally I pay no attention to the legal standard. My usual is two flashing lights. When I commuted regularly all year round I had a alu bar attached to the back of my rack which extended out to the right almost as far as the handlebar. On the left maybe 4" out from the rack. The idea being that I had 3 rear flashers. 1 seatpost mounted. Two on the rack being almost the width of the handlebars. Increasing the apparent width of the bike. I also had a large reflector on the rear of the rack.

I also wore a rucsac with a large Scotchlite patch. Never had any issue with near misses.

But I agree in an urban environment a single red light can almost vansh in the background in traffic.

[mjr]

Having courted controversy in the thread about a recent death by dangerous driving case by saying that I agreed with the expert witness (for the defence, I assume) who said that a single, steady rear bike light was “less than ideal” from a visibility perspective, can I ask whether people think the current legal minimum standards for cycle rear lights are adequate, and if not what people think is adequate?

Yes, 4 candles is perfectly adequate, visible easily without any danger of dazzle, if only drivers bother to look (and get regular eye tests).

The expert witness sounds inexpert. Drivers must drive so they can stop within what they can see to be clear. Lights of other things must not be relied upon, else they'll drive into loads of animals, blown over bins, fallen trees, . ..

[Tigerbiten]

Having courted controversy in the thread about a recent death by dangerous driving case by saying that I agreed with the expert witness (for the defence, I assume) who said that a single, steady rear bike light was “less than ideal” from a visibility perspective, can I ask whether people think the current legal minimum standards for cycle rear lights are adequate, and if not what people think is adequate?

But to be legal on a bike and on the road at night, you also need visible pedal reflectors.
They give two moving points of light in a cars headlights, hence making a bike much more noticeable.
So if you are road legal at night, then a single steady light plus pedal reflectors is adequate.
If you are not road legal, then some form of additional flashing light is probably advised.

Luck ...........

[Cugel]

Having courted controversy in the thread about a recent death by dangerous driving case by saying that I agreed with the expert witness (for the defence, I assume) who said that a single, steady rear bike light was “less than ideal” from a visibility perspective, can I ask whether people think the current legal minimum standards for cycle rear lights are adequate, and if not what people think is adequate?

Without getting into “ideal”, which IMO is a bit of a strange criterion to attempt to apply anyway, I will say that my personal perspective is that a single, steady rear bike light can be difficult to pick-out and identify as a bike when viewed against a background of darkness and numerous other tail lights on other vehicles, and could be bettered by using one flashing (to shout “bike”) and one steady (to aid judgement of distance), which I know some use already.

It's certainly worth giving motorists, many of whom seem to pay small attention to what they're doing, plenty of clue that one is going a lot slower them them, as they occasionally glance ahead, looking up from their phone screen and it's essential faecepuke info. A flashing red light is a start; or will do no harm, at least. Personally I have a very bright one indeed solely for daylight riding.

But, as I recall, cars have headlights. These are quite good for lighting up the road and its contents for a long way in front. When driving after dark myself, I find I have no difficulty in seeing ahead with those headlights on, especially since I keep the speed down to the see-stop distance .... and glue my eyes to the road in a somewhat paranoid fashion. (I believe that if I look away for longer than 3 pico-secs, three babies in pushchairs will roll out of the hidden gateways).

I don't ride a bike in the dark these days. When I did, I liked to have not just the red light (there were only big steady ones in them days, run by expensive lead-acid batteries) but also a plethora of reflective stuff - on the wheels, frame, shoes, jacket and anywhere else I could clag it. A cyclist-shaped Christmas tree is hard to ignore.

Well, hard to ignore if you're looking at one. That's the real issue. A cyclist should, in theory, be able to ride in black clothes with no lights or reflectives because car headlights should easily make them visible. But the drivers need to look - and not go so fast that they can't stop in their headlight-reach distance.

So, drivers (or many of them) being the careless dunces they are, Christmas tree mode seems necessary ... but still isn't going to be sufficient for those phone gazers and others paying no attention to where they're going, probably far too fast.

Cugel

[mjr]

A flashing red light is a start; or will do no harm, at least. Personally I have a very bright one indeed solely for daylight riding.

I can think of at least three harms done by a "very bright" red flashing light at night. Can you really not see the problems?

[gbnz]

Personally I pay no attention to the legal standard.

Sort of + 1. The statutory standard is the starting point, though I wouldn't want to ride at night, lit purely to the statutory standard. Aside from the backup, flashing battery LED lights, to supplement dynamo driven Busch & Muller lighting and various additional back up reflectors, have always found EN471 Class III reflective clothing to be worth it (NB. Reflective clothing worn by highways operatives, police officers, fire men etc, etc. have always managed to pick up bits and pieces FOC, though some statutory enforcement officers Class III, could ever be used)

[pwa]

A flashing red light is a start; or will do no harm, at least. Personally I have a very bright one indeed solely for daylight riding.

I can think of at least three harms done by a "very bright" red flashing light at night. Can you really not see the problems?

As a driver I sometimes find them disorientating, which is not the sensation you want to create in the person in charge of the vehicle about to pass you. A good steady light accompanied by a decent flasher works for me. Neither of them so bright that it hurts.

[Pebble]

it is always interesting to here other peoples thoughts. As a driver I think flashing lights on a bike are excellent and have no probs judging distances etc. Hence why I have two red flashers going. But that is not good if some drivers are disorientated etc by them. I must change one of my lights to steady.

Of course I have lots of reflective stuff on my clothes - does that not count as a steady light.

here is a vid of me taken from my vans dash cam with the lights on dip - I like to see how I may appear to other road users.

[thirdcrank]

Fit for what purpose?

If we are discussing being seen in the dark by a following driver who is paying attention in a vehicle with properly working headlights, then I think reflectives take some beating. I base that on personal observation. The better the headlights, the more light to be reflected.

If we are discussing being as safe as possible from a following driver who's not paying attention, then only pure luck makes much difference and street-legal lights and reflectors (including pedal reflectors when appropriate) are the only defence against claims that the rider was breaking the law. I fancy that might have more influence on a jury than any amount of opinionated opinion from an expert opining on the fitness for purpose of street-legal lights and the advocacy of a learned friend.

[Nearholmer]

Fit for what purpose?

If we are discussing being seen in the dark by a following driver who is paying attention in a vehicle with properly working headlights,

That was what I had in mind when I asked the question, and the particular challenge that I had in mind was picking out a bike from a background of other tail lights.

[thirdcrank]

Fit for what purpose?

If we are discussing being seen in the dark by a following driver who is paying attention in a vehicle with properly working headlights,

That was what I had in mind when I asked the question, and the particular challenge that I had in mind was picking out a bike from a background of other tail lights.

"My bad" I was influenced by your "courting controversy" comment about the the other thread.

[Cugel]

A flashing red light is a start; or will do no harm, at least. Personally I have a very bright one indeed solely for daylight riding.

I can think of at least three harms done by a "very bright" red flashing light at night. Can you really not see the problems?

Did you miss the "daylight" bit of my remark?

An overbright bright light at night is a different matter. On the other hand, why not list at least three problems with them yourself? Also, what constitutes "overbright at night"?

Cugel

[peetee]

I believe that with the present legality of high-intensity vehicle headlamps all riders should be encouraged to assess the effectiveness of their lighting (assisted by a friend in a vehicle if at all possible) in a variety of ‘live’ traffic scenarios.
To my mind the use of flashing front and rear lights should be encouraged if riders are travelling on roads where there is a significant disparity between vehicle and cyclist speeds.