UK Politics

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Cugel
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Re: UK Politics

Post by Cugel »

cycle tramp wrote: 17 Jun 2026, 10:23pm .at the monoment, the idea that we vote for one poltical party is rather like chosing a set three course menu in the knowledge that you're going to have to eat all of it... even the bits you don't like.

The idea that you vote for policies rather than parties, is more like a buffett. You can pick and choose which ones you want to support and which ones you don't.
It's worse than that. The single-choice menu, as well as the buffet menu, are generally naught but adverts of the most egregiously lying kind, as the political policies advertised are written to appeal to the hungry voters but generally turn out to be far from the various gruels and over-boiled slop actually served up. Anyone daft enough to believe that any political party will do what it says it will during the voter-persuasion phase of an election needs to compare historical lists of "what we promise to do" versus "what we actually did".
cycle tramp wrote: The thing about anarchisim is that its accepted it won't happen over night, or perhaps in our lifetime.. principly because it means raising a generation who are capable of thinking beyond their own needs and a accepting a level of responsibilty beyond supporting family and friends.. equally however is the present risk that if we stop attempting to raise this generation of wonder-beings, society itself is weakened..
My (our?) generation were raised in the post-WWII settlement to have high hopes and high regard for the sort of policies and attitudes redolent of the Attlee government. However, these hopes, dreams and even the actualities have soon been undermined, suborned and dismantled by the usual suspects (power-mad and venal humans adept at self-centred little skinbagism). Attlee gave us a fine base to improve upon. What did we do instead to bring us to Blightedland of today, with its hordes of swivel-eyed Xitters determined to debase everything worth having in a civilisation? The generation of wonder-beings seems to have turned out to be a generation of balrogs.
cycle tramp wrote: In regards for voting without personalities, we do this everyday. Everyday we vote with tokens which we call money for the goods that we buy - and whether we are aware of it or not, the world is shaped by those companies for which we have voted.
If you think that buying things is some sort of Adam Smithy rational choice, using impersonal money tokens, you may have missed the vast edifice of advertising and influencers that's hypnotised all of us into becoming avid little producer-consumers eager, nay anxious, to have the latest thing so we'll be admired by other avid producer-consumers (we hope).

Even those without the money tokens will go into serious debt in an attempt to keep up with the Joneses. At the very bottom of the socio-economic heap, there's still a lust to spent one's few shekels on vapes and gambling, 'cos the advert personalities smile winningly and tell us we can be "cool" and "winners".

*************
Once upon a time, a long time ago, I was even more optimistic than you concerning human abilities and our inner angels. Utopia beckoned, in the form of Attlee's ghost! Alas, those inner angels are soon overwhelmed by our inner devils, which seem currently to have waxed and waxed. Attlee is dead and gorn.

Still, perhaps you may kindle a hope that a Large Tech Bro will become our saviour. I believe that Muskrat thinks of hisself as an anarchist of sorts. He certainly seems adept at inducing one sort of anarchism about the planet, as do several others of his ilk. To hide this, they often call themselves "conservatives"- a vast dark joke, as they go about smashing and ruining everything.
Last edited by Cugel on 18 Jun 2026, 5:19pm, edited 2 times in total.
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
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Cugel
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Re: UK Politics

Post by Cugel »

cycle tramp wrote: 17 Jun 2026, 10:33pm A further thought on freedom of speech..

..the biggest difficulty isn't that there is a segement of the population demanding that another segement is somehow removed from the planet (or at least the bit that they can see).. and making these demands under 'freedom of speech'..
..the biggest difficulty comes in trying to make people listen to all the arguements..

..if someone reads the posts of Musk or whoever demanding that the western world is somehow under threat, then that person should spend the same amount of time reading the personal stories of those who have had to flee, to be here..

..if someone reads the bible then they should equally spend the same amount of time studying other religious texts (and if they're anything like me, noting the simialiries)..

Freedom of speech its not in itself the problem. The problem lies in the fact that it is used by people to support their own pre-existing world view rather than to exist as a foil to it. Freedom of speech is of most value when we use it to challenge our own beliefs.
A cogent analysis. It begs the question, then: if freedom of speech is in practice a device to bolster destructive prejudices rather than provide enlightenment, should such freedoms be curtailed?

You seem to suggest that the answer is no but that instead humans must all be somehow induced to be rational, reasonable, logical or otherwise of a mental condition in which they all somehow reach a kindly and tolerant attitude bringing auto-peace & harmony. Aye, fond hope.

Those nation-states that have survived the longest and perhaps even provided a relatively safe environment for most of their subjects seem generally to have had quite strong laws curtailing various notions and "freedoms of speech". In the long term, of course, such curtailments fail to confine the new mad revolutionary thoughts and associated actions break out with a demise of the nation-state, often via a descent into a rather unpleasant totalitarian regime.

Personally I fear the Christian tradition has the basics about humans right - we are all sinners, most of us bound for a hell (but of our own making). Redemption is possible for individuals but rare and difficult to achieve. Alas, their dream of a rapture for "the saved" seems highly unlikely! :-)
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
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mjr
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Re: UK Politics

Post by mjr »

cycle tramp wrote: 16 Jun 2026, 9:08pm
mjr wrote: 10 Jun 2026, 5:25pm Do the Tea Party fans on here have nothing to say about their heroes Musk, Robinson/Yaxley-Lennon and For-sale Farage exploiting tragedy to incite yet more riots and pogroms, reportedly coordinated online?

When will Starmer find a spine and boot Musk's media out of the UK?
I'll be the first to admit that i don't like any of them. However as an anarchist, they have the same right to express their views, as i do, as distasteful as i find them - the prinicipals of freedom of speech being 'i dislike what you say, however i respect the right to say it' - the alternative being i become a dictator and everyone has to ride steel framed bikes with 26 inch wheels - and write nice threads about riding them...
Let me stop you there: any time you have to lie about the alternative and present a false dichotomy between two extremes, your argument is too weak to survive even casual scrutiny.

I suspect most people would agree that there are things which are so dangerous that saying them should not go unpunished (the classic example being falsely shouting "fire" in a crowded room and causing a panicked stampede), as well as some which are so obviously dangerous that it's worth taking measures to discourage them being said in the first place (posting instructions on where to find people to kill may fall into this category), but also that restrictions on speech should be used rather cautiously and too many may be as bad as not enough.

What Musk, Zuck and the other tech barons are doing is not simply exercising their free speech, but abusing dominant market positions to impose their will and distort public perceptions. It's some strange new sort of propaganda capitalism, like the dodgy newspaper barons at warp speed, and we've still not really overcome those, 90 years after the Scott Trust was founded and 80 after the Daily Worker Co-operative Society.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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cycle tramp
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Re: UK Politics

Post by cycle tramp »

So anyway.. free speech... Bill Hicks wrote possibily one of best argued and most concise essay on why it should be protected - and parts of it are discussed here;

https://www.themarginalian.org/2014/06/ ... ch-letter/

The issue with free speech isn't that everyone can use it, but rather there's not enough people critically listening to it. The golden question is after you've read something is 'why do they need to tell me that?' That question is probably the best tool for limiting the effects of freedom of speech... 'why have they said those things?' All it takes is practise.
'Everybody is a genius - but if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree it will live its whole life believing it is stupid' Albert Einstein
pete75
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Re: UK Politics

Post by pete75 »

Has anyone here ever read Reform UK policies on their website. In some ways quite scary reading. One policy is to leave the ECHR, article three of which prohibits torture and another policy is to disapply the UN Convention against torture. Just what are they planning to do to us?
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
djnotts
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Re: UK Politics

Post by djnotts »

^pete75: "One policy is to leave the ECHR, article three of which prohibits torture and another policy is to disapply the UN Convention against torture. Just what are they planning to do to us?"

The whole and only point of Brexit was to leave the ECHR. Might not go for torture immediately, but many other "rights", especially employment, disability and fair trial, will go Day One of the brave new world.
pete75
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Re: UK Politics

Post by pete75 »

djnotts wrote: 20 Jun 2026, 10:54am ^pete75: "One policy is to leave the ECHR, article three of which prohibits torture and another policy is to disapply the UN Convention against torture. Just what are they planning to do to us?"

The whole and only point of Brexit was to leave the ECHR. Might not go for torture immediately, but many other "rights", especially employment, disability and fair trial, will go Day One of the brave new world.
Wonder why they specifically mention disapplying the UN convention against torture, if they don't plan to introduce it.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
cycle tramp
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Re: UK Politics

Post by cycle tramp »

pete75 wrote: 20 Jun 2026, 9:48am Has anyone here ever read Reform UK policies on their website. In some ways quite scary reading. One policy is to leave the ECHR, article three of which prohibits torture and another policy is to disapply the UN Convention against torture. Just what are they planning to do to us?
A history of a time to come? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YqRgwoe668M
(The scene in V for Vendetta where everything is explained)
'Everybody is a genius - but if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree it will live its whole life believing it is stupid' Albert Einstein
wheelyhappy99
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Re: UK Politics

Post by wheelyhappy99 »

The whole and only point of Brexit was to leave the ECHR. Might not go
for torture immediately, but many other "rights", especially employment,
disability and fair trial, will go Day One of the brave new world.
There's a basic misunderstanding here.

The European Convention on Human Rights was established in 1950 by the then newly formed Council of Europe. It built on the work of two lawyers, Raphael Lemkin and Hersch Lauterpacht, who created the legal concepts of genocide and crimes against humanity. 

The European Court of Human Rights is able to enforce those rights against governments that are signatories. Not a bad idea when you remember how several governments had treated their own citizens in the preceding decades. 

Neither are anything to do with the European Union. But it's probably wise to ask politicians who want to leave the European Convention and Court what they propose to do to their population that these bodies currently prevent .
pete75
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Re: UK Politics

Post by pete75 »

wheelyhappy99 wrote: 20 Jun 2026, 9:03pm
The whole and only point of Brexit was to leave the ECHR. Might not go
for torture immediately, but many other "rights", especially employment,
disability and fair trial, will go Day One of the brave new world.
There's a basic misunderstanding here.

The European Convention on Human Rights was established in 1950 by the then newly formed Council of Europe. It built on the work of two lawyers, Raphael Lemkin and Hersch Lauterpacht, who created the legal concepts of genocide and crimes against humanity. 

The European Court of Human Rights is able to enforce those rights against governments that are signatories. Not a bad idea when you remember how several governments had treated their own citizens in the preceding decades. 

Neither are anything to do with the European Union. But it's probably wise to ask politicians who want to leave the European Convention and Court what they propose to do to their population that these bodies currently prevent .
Not really a misunderstanding. EU member countries must be signed up to the ECHR. Impossible to leave it when a member of the EU.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
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Morzedec
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Re: UK Politics

Post by Morzedec »

I am a Beneficial Despot, in that my politics would be to help they in need by applying common sense at all times, but without all the self-interest that binds all modern politicians and silvery serpents.

A cyclist for PM? - doubt if many of the current crop of applicants could even get their leg over.
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pete75
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Re: UK Politics

Post by pete75 »

Morzedec wrote: 21 Jun 2026, 9:07am I am a Beneficial Despot, in that my politics would be to help they in need by applying common sense at all times, but without all the self-interest that binds all modern politicians and silvery serpents.

A cyclist for PM? - doubt if many of the current crop of applicants could even get their leg over.
Define common sense.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
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Cugel
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Re: UK Politics

Post by Cugel »

pete75 wrote: 21 Jun 2026, 10:49am
Morzedec wrote: 21 Jun 2026, 9:07am I am a Beneficial Despot, in that my politics would be to help they in need by applying common sense at all times, but without all the self-interest that binds all modern politicians and silvery serpents.

A cyclist for PM? - doubt if many of the current crop of applicants could even get their leg over.
Define common sense.
"Common sense" has currently been captured and fed with the mental equivalent of UPF by the Faraggoists, as they know that they are Right and that any notions not involving a vast intolerance of The Other is obviously wrong. "Obvious, innit mate, that them others should be persecuted away t'nuthin' and that Nige is Right and should be Our Leader".

Previous owners of "Common Sense", such as The Toryspivs and The Pretend Labour Party, lost their grip on "Common Sense" some time ago, when their various dogma-lists proved not just untenable but also vastly damaging to the commoners; and bereft of any sense whatsoever.

The New Model Common Sense will soon be established and woe betide anyone even thinking something else! One new common sensical element will be the dropping of objections to torturing the non-conformists, for example. It's obvious they should be so treated, see - enemies of The State, them!
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
pete75
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Re: UK Politics

Post by pete75 »

Cugel wrote: 21 Jun 2026, 12:25pm

"Common sense" has currently been captured and fed with the mental equivalent of UPF by the Faraggoists, as they know that they are Right and that any notions not involving a vast intolerance of The Other is obviously wrong. "Obvious, innit mate, that them others should be persecuted away t'nuthin' and that Nige is Right and should be Our Leader".

Used to think Farage and his Reform supporters were far right but common sense tells me they're actually far wrong.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
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Re: UK Politics

Post by al_yrpal »

Well, if you dont know what Common Sense is its something you lack.

Al
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