A contribution, rather than carping would be more welcome. What's your experience?
Giving up alcohol
Re: Giving up alcohol
I never smoked, but like you I experimented a lot with various drugs as a teen, especially later when I came out of the Forces. At university I was introduced to the nascent form of Ecstasy and tbh rather enjoyed the rave culture that came along with it. It's apparently making a massive comeback, as is Acid and various hallucinogens. My work currently puts me in contact with all sorts of people who for one reason or other have fallen foul of the law vis a vis their drug/alcohol use, so I have a fair bit of professional experience in the subject.
I no longer take any intoxicant drugs, but a few years ago I did become dependent on prescription pain killers after a serious back injury. It took me a long time to wean myself off them. As I said up thread, Class A substance use (I will not, categorically call it abuse) is at epidemic levels in the professions, especially the teaching and medical profession.
That's right, the nice GP you're going to see this afternoon probably has illegal drugs still in his/her system from last weekend. Too much information?
Probably, for some posting here. Too much reality.
Last edited by Dingdong on 3 Nov 2022, 9:50am, edited 2 times in total.
- simonineaston
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Re: Giving up alcohol
I guess a lot depends on your personal experience. With my background of working in and around hospitals, I've seen enough pain and misery brought about by nicotine, alcohol etc. to put me right off sticking such things into my body. Likewise, I've seen the mental toll on the folks left behind.
Other, luckier, folk may not have had to visit their chums in prison, attend their funerals, try to console their partners or trundle the losers down to the mortury or indeed carry their lost limbs down to the hospital incinerator... With all that in mind, I could have become a sanctimonious and evangelistic bore on the subject of giving up, but I haven't, 'cos I realise that addiction is indeed both very real and also mostly beyond advice.
Other, luckier, folk may not have had to visit their chums in prison, attend their funerals, try to console their partners or trundle the losers down to the mortury or indeed carry their lost limbs down to the hospital incinerator... With all that in mind, I could have become a sanctimonious and evangelistic bore on the subject of giving up, but I haven't, 'cos I realise that addiction is indeed both very real and also mostly beyond advice.
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
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Re: Giving up alcohol
I already did, but regardless, nobody is under any obligation to you to share experiences. And many already have, I'm not sure how you can possibly believe there isn't anyone who has. Perhaps you're not reading all the posts?
It may be that there are people on here who have deeply personal, experiences they don't wish to share. That doesn't make their opinions any less valid or worthwhile than mine, or yours.
Your demands, whilst doubtless well meant, are starting to feel like bullying.
If people's personal experiences are what really matters to you, you could start a separate thread "Please share your own experiences of alcohol and drug use".
Re: Giving up alcohol
I don't know your personal situation, but reading between the lines I'd say you have, or have had serious issues you would rather not discuss, even in a totally anonymous forum. Fair enough. I'm only asking people to contribute their experience, I'm not demanding it. I've had to attend various AA meetings, to support a former friend (now deceased) and their motto is pretty much 'if you don't wish to contribute, then at least listen'.roubaixtuesday wrote: ↑3 Nov 2022, 9:47amI already did, but regardless, nobody is under any obligation to you to share experiences. And many already have, I'm not sure how you can possibly believe there isn't anyone who has. Perhaps you're not reading all the posts?
It may be that there are people on here who have deeply personal, experiences they don't wish to share. That doesn't make their opinions any less valid or worthwhile than mine, or yours.
Your demands, whilst doubtless well meant, are starting to feel like bullying.
If people's personal experiences are what really matters to you, you could start a separate thread "Please share your own experiences of alcohol and drug use".
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Re: Giving up alcohol
Your assumptions about me are entirely incorrect.Dingdong wrote: ↑3 Nov 2022, 9:55amI don't know your personal situation, but reading between the lines I'd say you have, or have had serious issues you would rather not discuss, even in a totally anonymous forum. Fair enough. I'm only asking people to contribute their experience, I'm not demanding it. I've had to attend various AA meetings, to support a former friend (now deceased) and their motto is pretty much 'if you don't wish to contribute, then at least listen'.roubaixtuesday wrote: ↑3 Nov 2022, 9:47amI already did, but regardless, nobody is under any obligation to you to share experiences. And many already have, I'm not sure how you can possibly believe there isn't anyone who has. Perhaps you're not reading all the posts?
It may be that there are people on here who have deeply personal, experiences they don't wish to share. That doesn't make their opinions any less valid or worthwhile than mine, or yours.
Your demands, whilst doubtless well meant, are starting to feel like bullying.
If people's personal experiences are what really matters to you, you could start a separate thread "Please share your own experiences of alcohol and drug use".
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Re: Giving up alcohol
Something else that this thread doesnt seem to touch on much, but which I think is hugely important in understanding what part alcohol plays in society, specifically how it creates harm, is "drinking cultures".
There very definitely are and have been places and times where heavy drinking is or has been completely normalised, and places and times where completely the reverse is or has been true. Anyone unfortunate enough to be born, or wander into a place and time of heavy drinking can or could get caught-up in that and the associated harms, with "addicive personality disorder" having little or nothing to do with it.
A few examples to illustrate my point:
- rural southern English working class (my own roots), up until probably the 1960/70s. Very little "drinking culture", quite a lot of what my father used to call "tin hut religion", all of which was vehemently opposed to drinking, very little spare money around, "off sales" were a very small thing, and an evening at the pub consisted of nursing one pint of (strong and very tasty!) dark beer with three bubbles at the edge of the glass while playing dominoes. My grandparents never went in pubs, and had one drink a year, being a Port and Lemon after Christmas Dinner while they listened to HMQ on the wireless. By the time I grew-up this was giving way to underage drinking in pubs (I know, I was there!) and older people drinking more as they had a bit more spare money.
- rural Ireland until maybe as recently as the early-2000s (my MiL's roots). Massive pub culture, lots of really heavy drinking, and behind the positives of folk music and craic, a shocking amount of drink-fuelled domestic violence, general low-grade brutality, impoverishment, and a really serious toll on health. If you do the Guiness tour at Dublin Brewery, work out the per-capita consumption, and the percentage of national income tied-up in drink in what was a poor country until the 1980s and it is a real eye-opener. There was definitely a dark side to the black stuff. The big change came as late as c2000 when the country seemed to switch overnight, and I think maybe the changing role of women played a big part.
- Canary Wharf, London, full of hugely overpaid young finance/speculator bods in the ten or fifteen years preceding the 2008 crash. I worked there (not as an overpaid finance bod) at this time and it was truly crazy, a mad maelstrom of after-work drinking, the amount of money poured down young throats was astounding, and of course there was a lot of "high-end" drug use too. Anyone on even the periphery of it was at risk of getting swept-in.
- drinking families. I've seen a few where the drinking culture is almost islanded in a family, not a much wider thing, and it crosses generations.
Anyone else got thoughts on drinking (or not-drinking) cultures? Bizare thought as it may seem, are there drinking cultures around some forms of cycling in some places?
There very definitely are and have been places and times where heavy drinking is or has been completely normalised, and places and times where completely the reverse is or has been true. Anyone unfortunate enough to be born, or wander into a place and time of heavy drinking can or could get caught-up in that and the associated harms, with "addicive personality disorder" having little or nothing to do with it.
A few examples to illustrate my point:
- rural southern English working class (my own roots), up until probably the 1960/70s. Very little "drinking culture", quite a lot of what my father used to call "tin hut religion", all of which was vehemently opposed to drinking, very little spare money around, "off sales" were a very small thing, and an evening at the pub consisted of nursing one pint of (strong and very tasty!) dark beer with three bubbles at the edge of the glass while playing dominoes. My grandparents never went in pubs, and had one drink a year, being a Port and Lemon after Christmas Dinner while they listened to HMQ on the wireless. By the time I grew-up this was giving way to underage drinking in pubs (I know, I was there!) and older people drinking more as they had a bit more spare money.
- rural Ireland until maybe as recently as the early-2000s (my MiL's roots). Massive pub culture, lots of really heavy drinking, and behind the positives of folk music and craic, a shocking amount of drink-fuelled domestic violence, general low-grade brutality, impoverishment, and a really serious toll on health. If you do the Guiness tour at Dublin Brewery, work out the per-capita consumption, and the percentage of national income tied-up in drink in what was a poor country until the 1980s and it is a real eye-opener. There was definitely a dark side to the black stuff. The big change came as late as c2000 when the country seemed to switch overnight, and I think maybe the changing role of women played a big part.
- Canary Wharf, London, full of hugely overpaid young finance/speculator bods in the ten or fifteen years preceding the 2008 crash. I worked there (not as an overpaid finance bod) at this time and it was truly crazy, a mad maelstrom of after-work drinking, the amount of money poured down young throats was astounding, and of course there was a lot of "high-end" drug use too. Anyone on even the periphery of it was at risk of getting swept-in.
- drinking families. I've seen a few where the drinking culture is almost islanded in a family, not a much wider thing, and it crosses generations.
Anyone else got thoughts on drinking (or not-drinking) cultures? Bizare thought as it may seem, are there drinking cultures around some forms of cycling in some places?
- simonineaston
- Posts: 8003
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Re: Giving up alcohol
Nothing useful to add, other than the consumption of alcohol is absolutely threaded through our society and has been for centuries. How intertwined it is can be brought to mind by trying to imagine those life milestones like weddings and funeral taking place without copious consumption - indeed they almost invariably take place specifically at venues deliberately setup to sell the drug and all its varieties and as we know, it's the custom for the families involved to pay for much - or all - the consumption of the drug, on the day.Anyone else got thoughts on drinking (or not-drinking) cultures?
Minors will often have their first intake of the drug on such occasions, wherein the pattern will commence that the taking of the drug is to celebrate something special, disregarding the common occurance of a punch up later on, between the young male adults present who've had too much...
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Re: Giving up alcohol
To paraphrase:
"Although you haven't said so, I'm going to say that you clearly have an emotional problem with the subject matter, therefore cannot possibly be rational and objective about it. Therefore what you say isn't valid".
"My experience is in the real world, therefore what I say is correct. Other people are incorrect, because they live in the unreal world, so don't have real experience."
"People with important job titles and high salaries do XXX. So doing XXX must be a harmless thing to do."
"I once did XXX and I'm still alive. So doing XXX must be OK."
"Please tell us everything about yourself. Otherwise your views are wrong."
Type of things.
"Although you haven't said so, I'm going to say that you clearly have an emotional problem with the subject matter, therefore cannot possibly be rational and objective about it. Therefore what you say isn't valid".
"My experience is in the real world, therefore what I say is correct. Other people are incorrect, because they live in the unreal world, so don't have real experience."
"People with important job titles and high salaries do XXX. So doing XXX must be a harmless thing to do."
"I once did XXX and I'm still alive. So doing XXX must be OK."
"Please tell us everything about yourself. Otherwise your views are wrong."
Type of things.
Re: Giving up alcohol
"What really surprised me about this thread, is that aside from myself and Mick, almost nobody is prepared to share their experiences with drugs and alcohol. Are we that ashamed of ourselves? Is it still such a taboo, on an anonymous forum like this!?"
Mine is clear enough above! To expand:
Started smoking at 9, beer then dope at 16, lots of dope 18 on plus speed and some acid for a few years. Moving from Leeds when I was 26 pretty much ended dope, but fell into an even heavier drinking set near Plymouth.
Functioning heavy drinker, probably meeting alcoholic criteria, until early 50s (though I did manage 21 months dry at one point). Early retirement removed the work discipline and rapidly descended to near fatal excess.
My drinking didn't help my career and certainly harmed my family, financially and psychologically.
I never played with H (dislike of needles) and marching powder not really on the scene.
After nearly 20 years I still want a drink, but the alcohol related dreams have finally just about ended. I can visit a pub and be with those having a drink, but avoid any heavy drinking environment.
I substituted the addiction with cycling every day. Probably better for me!
Whoever asks why I am not drinking...
I just say "I am an alcoholic."
Mine is clear enough above! To expand:
Started smoking at 9, beer then dope at 16, lots of dope 18 on plus speed and some acid for a few years. Moving from Leeds when I was 26 pretty much ended dope, but fell into an even heavier drinking set near Plymouth.
Functioning heavy drinker, probably meeting alcoholic criteria, until early 50s (though I did manage 21 months dry at one point). Early retirement removed the work discipline and rapidly descended to near fatal excess.
My drinking didn't help my career and certainly harmed my family, financially and psychologically.
I never played with H (dislike of needles) and marching powder not really on the scene.
After nearly 20 years I still want a drink, but the alcohol related dreams have finally just about ended. I can visit a pub and be with those having a drink, but avoid any heavy drinking environment.
I substituted the addiction with cycling every day. Probably better for me!
Whoever asks why I am not drinking...
I just say "I am an alcoholic."
Re: Giving up alcohol
Ok, I do drink the odd glass of wine or a tot. Not regularly. I will volunteer to drive others to a pub or event never drinking more than a weak pint. Never taken drugs. Feel sorry for people who have become addicted to anything.
Al
Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
Re: Giving up alcohol
Before you accuse me of goading and trolling its only fair we revisit the post in question from said poster that ignited the thread and led it down this merry path. Hang on we can't because the moderators removed it, needless to say it was quite extreme' and was worthy of removal. They set their stall out early, there is no debate or wiggle room, its all black and white in their world. Forgive me and others for asking why they believe moderate drinkers are deluded addicts, forgive us for asking what exactly they consider a moderate drinker, forgive us for asking why they hold the views that were subsequently moderated. Some people have chosen to share (as in the post above, as I have twice as has Mick and dingdong) this individual hasn't as is their right.Cugel wrote: ↑3 Nov 2022, 8:47am
I'm sure that you're very aware of this, so your attempt to goad Ms Girl with an accusation of being "extreme" in mentioning these facts seems revealed as nothing much other than common-or-garden trolling. You could have just emitted a nice little tease instead.
Meanwhile, I am casting a special spell to ward away the gremlin reading your post, who was busy planning an unfortunate encounter between you and a drunk assailant with tastes for not just violence but several of the other alcohol-induced rages. Comeuppance gremlins are everywhere, you know, just waiting for foolish remarks like yours to be their excuse for a issuing a life-lesson!
Cugel
Last edited by ossie on 3 Nov 2022, 1:33pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Giving up alcohol
Hit the nail on the head there .LancsGirl wrote: ↑3 Nov 2022, 11:57am To paraphrase:
"Although you haven't said so, I'm going to say that you clearly have an emotional problem with the subject matter, therefore cannot possibly be rational and objective about it. Therefore what you say isn't valid".
"My experience is in the real world, therefore what I say is correct. Other people are incorrect, because they live in the unreal world, so don't have real experience."
"People with important job titles and high salaries do XXX. So doing XXX must be a harmless thing to do."
"I once did XXX and I'm still alive. So doing XXX must be OK."
"Please tell us everything about yourself. Otherwise your views are wrong."
Type of things.
I guess that the thread has now drifted quite away from the original post and can only assume that some folk feel it necessary to shape the discussion in a such a way as to make whatever it is that they’re doing, or have done, to be the norm - or even ideal in some way. Not being a heavy drinker and not doing drugs must surely mean I’m a very poor citizen…
The original post:
Rock bus wrote: ↑24 Oct 2022, 9:13pm after advice from people in the group that have given up alcohol but not due to an ‘alcohol problem’.
I’m contemplating it at the moment, not because of any issue with it. I only drink at the weekend and that’s normally a few cans or rum and cokes or share a bottle of wine with my wife. Also have the occasional session with mates every month or so.
I’m just a bit fed up if it being what I do if celebrating or when had a tough time. I’d also just like to get a bit healthier.
But one of my main concerns is that I do enjoy it and consider it big part of my social life. Not sure a weekend away cycling/hiking in the van would be the same without a few tipples.
Just wondered if anyone had any experience of doing it? Did it really have a big positive impact on your life?
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
- simonineaston
- Posts: 8003
- Joined: 9 May 2007, 1:06pm
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Re: Giving up alcohol
Not so, I think... I've gently hinted a) that no alcohol is best of all for your body b) there may be other benefits to be had from moderate social intake and finally c) it's down to personal choice. Hope that helpsin a such a way as to make whatever it is that they’re doing, or have done, to be the norm
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)