Spoke Tensionometer

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Mick F
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Spoke Tensionometer

Post by Mick F »

I've had a search, but I don't think there's a thread on this subject.
It's mentioned in many threads about wheelbuilding and spoke tensions, but I can't find one on the specific subject.

If there is one, I'll wind my neck in and contribute to it instead of starting this new one. Perhaps the subject needs a new airing anyway! :D

I'm wondering if it would take all the guesswork out of truing a wheel and make the whole job quicker.
To my mind, if all the spokes were the same tension, the wheel would be true. Dishing is a separate subject of course.
Front wheels would be easy and quick ........... Shirley?

As I'm saying on another thread regarding rim wear, and building new rims into the bike, I did a bit of Googling to see what sort of cost a spoke tensionometer is.
I'm aware of the expensive Park Tool offerings, but the cost seems extreme, so Goggle came up with eBay, and less than £15.

So. I've taken a punt on this one.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/403883414610 ... BMwuKb2IFh

Any thoughts?
Mick F. Cornwall
PH
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Re: Spoke Tensionometer

Post by PH »

I have the use of a Park Tools tensionmeter and this iPhone app, the app is more consistent
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/spoke-ten ... d518870820
rjb
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Re: Spoke Tensionometer

Post by rjb »

Thread here from 2013
viewtopic.php?t=74445
:wink:
At the last count:- Peugeot 531 pro, Dawes Discovery Tandem, Dawes Kingpin X3, Raleigh 20 stowaway, 1965 Moulton deluxe, Falcon K2 MTB dropped bar tourer, Rudge Bi frame folder, Longstaff trike conversion on a Giant XTC 840 :D
DevonDamo
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Re: Spoke Tensionometer

Post by DevonDamo »

Mick F wrote: 25 Oct 2022, 2:41pmI'm wondering if it would take all the guesswork out of truing a wheel and make the whole job quicker [...]Any thoughts?
I bought a very similar Park Tool copy to that one and used it when building up two lightweight wheels on a mountain bike which I'm using for much higher-impact riding than it was intended for. Prior to rebuilding these wheels, I'd been experiencing a lot of loose and broken spokes. (I've subsequently learned that broken spokes are usually indicative of failing to stress-relieve them.)

After building both wheels, I went to town with the tension meter, and made sure every spoke was at the right tension and all the spokes were near-as-damnit at the same tension. This was pretty easy - those meters are quick to use, and I quickly discovered all the spokes were too loose, so the main job was done by adding a half a turn or so to every spoke. After that, there was a minimal amount of re-trueing needed, and I had a perfect wheel - i.e. true with the right tension on every spoke.

I couldn't be happier with the results. I've spent around 6 months smashing these wheels hard on a hardtail with minimal front suspension, and they haven't needed trueing once since I rebuilt them.

You're going to get comments that there's no need for a tension meter as you should be able to do it by squeezing spokes together and/or tapping/listening. Well (1) I'm tone deaf, and (2) I was completely unaware that the spoke tension on some of my other bikes was too low. So I've found this cheap gadget well worth having for someone who doesn't have the ear/knack of an experienced wheel-builder.
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Mick F
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Re: Spoke Tensionometer

Post by Mick F »

Thanks rjb and DD for the info.
The original thread from 2013 had exclam marks ......... no wonder I couldn't find it!

I've been building wheels for years, but the 406 wheels on Moulton are far more difficult than a standard 700c wheel.
The front one with radial both sides is simple, but there's quite a dish to the rear, so not quite so simple.

I'm in no rush to finish these wheels, as I do have another bike! :D
It would be nice to have a play with one of those tensionometer thingies, considering they are less than £15.
Compare that to the Park Tool.
£95! :shock:
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/tools/park- ... ion-meter/

Precision and accuracy are two different things of course. I'm not fussed about the accurate tension, so long as the spokes are the same and the wheels are strong and true.
Mick F. Cornwall
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Re: Spoke Tensionometer

Post by hoogerbooger »

I'd be interested to know if others find that equal tension ( on the respective sides) actually produces a straight and round wheel ?

I haven't used a tension meter myself, but using the tuning to the same pitch approach....I have more often then not had a remaining amount of truing to do. The join in the rim being a frequent "protagonist"

My recollection on the rim join was tha Brucey advised that tension often needs to be higher here and a fully true wheel may not have perfectly equal tension
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esasjl
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Re: Spoke Tensionometer

Post by esasjl »

I've not built many wheels so this is just experimentation. None of my wheels have exactly identical tension as I suspect rim and hub flange tolerances preclude this being exact. When building a wheel I tension by sound, but do have the Park tool to check. I get the wheel trued, dished, destressed etc. I then set all the spokes on a front wheel to the same tone and do a thorough 'squeeze' to remove residual stress. I then do a final true. On the rear I do the same process with the same tone on each side. So far no issues.
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Mick F
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Re: Spoke Tensionometer

Post by Mick F »

I've been thinking and stewing over this, and remember, I've been building my own wheels since 1980 something.
All I've ever used is dexterity and common sense. Always worked, and never had a broken spoke since buying a pair of wheels "off the peg" in 2004.

Rims when brand new, should be flat.
So, if all things being equal, the spokes should all be the same tension (side orientation accepted) and within reason.
Pringles and things if you exceed common sense, so if the spokes are "reasonable" and all the same (per side) you should have a true wheel.

My new tensionometer should arrive in less than a week's time.
I await a trial ............ and a report on here! :D
Mick F. Cornwall
axel_knutt
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Re: Spoke Tensionometer

Post by axel_knutt »

The human ear can hear a frequency difference as small as 0.3%, which would equate to a difference in tension of 0.6%, if tensiometers are that accurate I'm a Chinaman. A tensiometer will tell you if you're using the right tension, but for matching all the spokes to each other your lughole wins hands down.

I true by ear, but being too tight fisted to buy a tensiometer, I then use a spring balance for checking tension.
hoogerbooger wrote: 25 Oct 2022, 4:34pm I'd be interested to know if others find that equal tension ( on the respective sides) actually produces a straight and round wheel ?
Yes. The spoke tensions don't have to be even to get a true wheel, it will still run true if the unevenness is in a symmetrical pattern. I once had a wheel that was true but with uneven tensions, so I just ignored the truing for a while, and concentrated on going round and round the wheel until the tension was even. At first the wheel went out of true, but then as the spoke tensions evened up, it came back into true again.
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Spoke Tensionometer

Post by slowster »

hoogerbooger wrote: 25 Oct 2022, 4:34pm using the tuning to the same pitch approach....I have more often then not had a remaining amount of truing to do.
I followed the guidance in Roger Musson's book for the few wheels I have built so far. I don't aim to get all the spokes on one side the same pitch during the build. Instead I use pitch as detailed by Roger Musson to determine which spoke(s) need to be tightened or loosened to correct localised lateral untrueness. In other words, plucking a few left hand spokes and then a few right hand spokes. Typically one or more spokes will often sound different to the others on that side, indicating that is the one needing to be tightened or loosened. If I cannot detect a significant difference in tone between spokes, then I tighten multiple spokes on one side by a small amount, e.g. quarter turn or less, and/or similarly slightly loosen multiple spokes on the other side. The final result is that the spokes on one side do have approximately the same pitch, but I do not try to achieve that and keep it like that at each stage of increasing the tension.
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Re: Spoke Tensionometer

Post by rjb »

axel_knutt wrote: 25 Oct 2022, 4:52pm I true by ear, but being too tight fisted to buy a tensiometer, I then use a spring balance for checking tension.
? Can you explain how you use a spring balance please.

What rough frequency do people tension their spokes too. Does it depend on spoke length so smaller wheels need higher tension?
At the last count:- Peugeot 531 pro, Dawes Discovery Tandem, Dawes Kingpin X3, Raleigh 20 stowaway, 1965 Moulton deluxe, Falcon K2 MTB dropped bar tourer, Rudge Bi frame folder, Longstaff trike conversion on a Giant XTC 840 :D
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Re: Spoke Tensionometer

Post by geomannie »

I built my first wheels & took my bike to a local very experienced bike mechanic to ask his opinion. He spun the wheels, ran his finger around the spokes & declared that the build was fine.

I then went on to build 9-10 wheels before I decided to buy a cheap spoke tension guage, mainly as I curious to know if I were really getting tension ok.

Long story short, on the wheels I checked, spoke tensions were similar & within the specified range. I haven't really bothered to use the much gauge since.

I'm with the OP, if all the spokes weren't the same tension, the wheel wouldn't be true. Absolute tension range is different, but I feel confident that I now know what it should be, if only by plucking a spoke and comparing to a previously built wheel, just as my friendly mechanic did.
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Re: Spoke Tensionometer

Post by DevonDamo »

rjb wrote: 25 Oct 2022, 5:12pmWhat rough frequency do people tension their spokes too. Does it depend on spoke length so smaller wheels need higher tension?
I don't know about what the frequency would be but yes - the required tension of a spoke should be given by the rim manufacturer, and I'm sure that one of the variables that will determine this will be the rim diameter.
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interestedcp
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Re: Spoke Tensionometer

Post by interestedcp »

Mick F wrote: 25 Oct 2022, 2:41pm
To my mind, if all the spokes were the same tension, the wheel would be true.
That definitely isn't the case; you can have perfect equal spoke tension and still have a very wobbly wheel. Even if I count every spoke nipple rotation, so each and every spoke nipple is screwed on the spokes with exactly the same number of turns, the rim is still out of true (sub 600g rims).

When I got my spoke tension meter I tried to build a wheel with the tensiometer dictating the build. That resulted in a horrible wheel build I had to revert. IMHO, the best way to use a tensiometer is to use it as an aid to your existing wheel building technique, checking relative and perhaps absolute spoke tension, when the build is in its final stages.

Mick F wrote: 25 Oct 2022, 2:41pm So. I've taken a punt on this one.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/403883414610 ... BMwuKb2IFh

Any thoughts?
No idea about that version. I think I would be wary of trusting its absolute spoke tension values (whether a spoke tension is 100 kgf), and use it more for relative tension checking (are the spokes of equal tension).

Should I buy a tensiometer today (I own a Park Tool one), I would probably go for a Unior Tools spoke tensiometer.
https://uniortools.com/eng/product/1752 ... ter#758778

Unior is a proper tool making company that make all their tools in the EU, and I like quality of the Unior Tools I have bought already.
Furthermore, it comes pre-calibrated from the factory and is uniquely supplied with a calibrating rod, so you can ensure whether it is still correctly calibrated or not. The spoke tension values can also be read from both sides which some may find useful, and Unior is also pretty good with spare parts (you can buy a new spring for it).
It also comes with a proper tool box to store it in, something that shouldn't be underestimated since spoke tensiometers are delicate instruments.
It is on sale on bike24.com at the moment.
--
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Re: Spoke Tensionometer

Post by zenitb »

hoogerbooger wrote: 25 Oct 2022, 4:34pm I'd be interested to know if others find that equal tension ( on the respective sides) actually produces a straight and round wheel ?

I haven't used a tension meter myself, but using the tuning to the same pitch approach....I have more often then not had a remaining amount of truing to do. The join in the rim being a frequent "protagonist"

My recollection on the rim join was tha Brucey advised that tension often needs to be higher here and a fully true wheel may not have perfectly equal tension
Well that is certainly my experience Hooger. Here is the output from my Park Tools tensiometer on what should have been a simple build.. SP dynohub,36 symetrical spokes, brand new dynamohub and rim.

The "blips" in the diagram correspond to the valve hole (at the top of the Park Tools tension diagram below) and the rim join (at the bottom of the diagram). These needed special attention but generally all the spoke tensions are within 15% of each other.
New SP Dynohub / Zac 19 Rim / DT spokes
New SP Dynohub / Zac 19 Rim / DT spokes
http://zenit-b.blogspot.com/2017/02/shu ... build.html

Now that is with a new unbent rim. Things can get a bit wild with pre-bent stuff. Here is a no name REAR wheel that I bought in a panic for £30 and then thrashed around off road for a few years. These were the tensions needed to straighten it !!!
Oldish no name wheel after trueing
Oldish no name wheel after trueing
http://zenit-b.blogspot.com/2016/11/no- ... wrong.html

I seem to get on ok with the Park Tools meter but I have really only done very conservative 36 or 32 spoke builds from scratch (although I recently used it to true existing 20 spoke Mavic Askiums) I paid a lot less for the Park tool than Mick F is quoting though .. £45 if memory serves. As a general point I am using the current inflation as the perfect excuse to buy and hoard gear.. the only way is up, baby !!!
Last edited by zenitb on 25 Oct 2022, 10:40pm, edited 1 time in total.
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