Travelling to southern Europe without flying

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mattheus
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Re: Travelling to southern Europe without flying

Post by mattheus »

marmite wrote: 5 Oct 2022, 11:17am
nirakaro wrote: 14 Apr 2022, 5:51pm If you're not in a rush, I've found that a short-to-normal day's cycling each day, plus hopping on a local train whenever possible, works nicely - for example I got from the heel of Italy to the Channel, including a couple of Alpine passes, in a non-strenuous eight day ride.
Hi I would be interested in your route. The cycle+ slow train option + overnight stays does seem to be the way forward but you also want the bits you choose to cycle to be nice.
Yes. (and ideally the rail bits would be direct with no bike-on-train hassle.)

By comparison, I did Dunkirk-Nice via the Alps over 7 very strenuous days - I quite like the sound of nirakaro's trip!
Dingdong
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Re: Travelling to southern Europe without flying

Post by Dingdong »

Eurostar to Paris, booked in advance it's quite cheap. From Paris, you can go anywhere!
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MrsHJ
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Re: Travelling to southern Europe without flying

Post by MrsHJ »

Dingdong wrote: 5 Oct 2022, 5:49pm Eurostar to Paris, booked in advance it's quite cheap. From Paris, you can go anywhere!
Sadly not at the moment unless you’re taking a Brompton or hiring out there. There is a thread. Having said that from the West Country I quite liked getting a ferry and then a TGV to Paris for onwards travel.
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Re: Travelling to southern Europe without flying

Post by PH »

MrsHJ wrote: 5 Oct 2022, 6:12pm Sadly not at the moment unless you’re taking a Brompton or hiring out there.
Other folding bikes are available :wink:
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mjr
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Re: Travelling to southern Europe without flying

Post by mjr »

PH wrote: 3 Oct 2022, 5:30pm
marmite wrote: 3 Oct 2022, 5:20pm I am still not entirely sure what circumstances allow one to reclaim duty. Is it simply enough that the goods were already your property?
That's pretty much it.
Despite what some would have us believe, there are no punitive taxes, [...]
There are many new punitive taxes but they do not apply to this case. Whoever said they would? I feel that's inventing people claiming that there are even more problems, who can then be insulted in order to distract from the actual problems like this added bureaucracy and the whole pay-and-reclaim trial if your papers were not in perfect order on the first attempt. Nearly as good as Asterix getting form A 38.
if you were not liable for the tax you are entitled to it back. That's not to say it wouldn't have been easier with the right paperwork to begin with, or that they'll make it easy for you to reclaim it, but it doesn't matter who's error it was, if it wasn't due you can get it back.
In theory. Let's see what happens in practice.
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Re: Travelling to southern Europe without flying

Post by PH »

mjr wrote: 5 Oct 2022, 7:57pm
PH wrote: 3 Oct 2022, 5:30pm Despite what some would have us believe, there are no punitive taxes, [...]
There are many new punitive taxes but they do not apply to this case. Whoever said they would?
Here's one example of several
st599_uk wrote: 21 Sep 2022, 4:27pm You can claim returned goods relief if you exported using an official Duplicate List - but you'd have needed to stamp that on the way out of the UK.
You don't become liable for import duty because you didn't get the right stamp - that would be punitive, a punishment for something rather than the duty due for importing.

I don't think I've insulted anyone, or minimised the problems, or made any political point (Best leave that to the appropriate thread). If you get charged import duty when you haven't imported the item in question, you are entitled to a refund. That's always been the case, I have experience of it, the difference now is it applies to the EU in the same way as it's previously applied to countries outside it.
blaugrana
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Re: Travelling to southern Europe without flying

Post by blaugrana »

I’ve recently come back from a few weeks in France, including some local TER trains, TGV (Paris-Avignon) & overnight (Toulouse-Paris).

On all but TERS you need a bike reservation and there are few spaces per train, so you have to book ahead or get lucky.

I hadn’t booked anything in advance so probably paid a premium for that flexibility. I juggled with a couple of apps to research and buy tickets as I went: SNCF Connect and DB Navigator. The former knows about train cancellations (very useful as there was a lot of industrial action in the Midi) but seems to dislike TERs. I also asked quite a few questions on a really helpful Facebook group - Vélo et train en France.

The TGV was great value and an experience in itself. The couchette back from Toulouse was also good value and a reminder of long-distant holidays, if a bit alarming initially.

Crossing Paris by bike (twice) was brilliant and highly recommended. There are so many cyclists now - remarkable.

So - in summary - bike + train to the Med is very doable and enjoyable.
Angstrom
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Re: Travelling to southern Europe without flying

Post by Angstrom »

blaugrana wrote: 7 Oct 2022, 2:33pm The former [SNCF Connect] knows about train cancellations (very useful as there was a lot of industrial action in the Midi) but seems to dislike TERs.
Very true.
One must know/use the TER network map and often "force" the app to propose TERs by using the "via" (selecting a stop or a connection station) because the SNCF Connect app is heavily bias towards the TGVs. I often have to do multiple manual searches because the app won't propose suitable itiniraries by itself.
So we must do like we did before with timetables, pen and paper, using the data from the app but figuring out our own connections and selection of trains, being wary of their algorithms and assuming they propose the best option.

Using the DB app is often a good choice because when I used it the last time I could filter the trains and force the app to only use TERs.

[Edit]: SNCF Connect seems to have improved somewhat. I redid a search that I had done in july without a good proposal and this time it did propose a good itinirary (but not the best one).
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MrsHJ
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Re: Travelling to southern Europe without flying

Post by MrsHJ »

Try just using the SNCF site on your web explorer to figure out your plans and then you can explore individual services and make a booking via the app. There is a button you can click to turn off high speed services on the web based version (after it searches). Also if you know you’ll have to go via eg paris put paris in as a destination before dealing with your onward trip. It’s not good at connections when with a bike.

Agree that it’s best to explore options with different providers- the slightly different weighting they put in different elements of the journey might give more choices.
nirakaro
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Re: Travelling to southern Europe without flying

Post by nirakaro »

It's a few years back, and I don't have it written down, but, from memory:

Day 1 - ride Canosa di Puglia – Foggia
Day 2 - train Foggia-Potenza-Naples
short ride Naples-Varcaturo
Day 3 - ride Varcaturo-Minturno
Day 4 - train Minturno-Rome-Livorno
short ride Livorno-Pisa
Day 5 - train Pisa-Berceto
short ride Berceto-Fiorenzuola
Day 6 - train Fiorenzuola-Piacenza-Torino-Bardonecchia
ride over col de l'Echelle* to near Briancon
Day 7 - ride over col du Lautaret to le Bourg d'Oisans
Day 8 - ride to Grenoble
train Grenoble-Lyon-Migennes
Day 9 - train Migennes-Paris
ride across Paris. Brief pause to admire impressive tower.
train Paris-Rouen
ride Rouen-Dieppe

OK, nine days not eight, but hey, poetic licence.

* The col de l'Echelle is a lovely almost-traffic-free ride, and the easiest way across the Alps from France to Italy – you can 'cheat' by getting a train up to about 1300m on both sides. I've ridden it several times, and each time I've admired the pretty wooded glade at the top, and thought, what a lovely spot for wild camping. I finally managed that last Wednesday, started the climb late afternoon, with just time to get my tent up before sunset. Utterly silent, scent of pine trees, last of the risotto and last of the Chianti for supper, not a soul within miles, one of those super-clear nights when the whole sky is softly glowing with stars … that's a night that stays with you. Chilly though!
st599_uk
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Re: Travelling to southern Europe without flying

Post by st599_uk »

PH wrote: 5 Oct 2022, 8:38pm
mjr wrote: 5 Oct 2022, 7:57pm
PH wrote: 3 Oct 2022, 5:30pm Despite what some would have us believe, there are no punitive taxes, [...]
There are many new punitive taxes but they do not apply to this case. Whoever said they would?
Here's one example of several
st599_uk wrote: 21 Sep 2022, 4:27pm You can claim returned goods relief if you exported using an official Duplicate List - but you'd have needed to stamp that on the way out of the UK.
You don't become liable for import duty because you didn't get the right stamp - that would be punitive, a punishment for something rather than the duty due for importing.
The duplicate list or ATA Carnet is the proof that import duty is not required.

You get them stamped to prove the exported goods were re-imported. With a carnet, no stamp and you can lose the bond paid (which for the EU is 40% of the value of the goods)
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PH
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Re: Travelling to southern Europe without flying

Post by PH »

st599_uk wrote: 10 Oct 2022, 10:35am The duplicate list or ATA Carnet is the proof that import duty is not required.
Yes, that's why I said
That's not to say it wouldn't have been easier with the right paperwork to begin with
You're wrong if you think that not having a Carnet makes you liable for import duty. I answered a specific point, that in marmite's scenario import duty could be reclaimed and I provided a link to the form to do so.
May I suggest if you want to discuss this further you start an appropriate thread? I didn't intend to divert a thread that's primarily about transport options. Thanks.
mattheus
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Re: Travelling to southern Europe without flying

Post by mattheus »

nirakaro wrote: 10 Oct 2022, 8:06am I
OK, nine days not eight, but hey, poetic licence.

* The col de l'Echelle is a lovely almost-traffic-free ride, and the easiest way across the Alps from France to Italy – you can 'cheat' by getting a train up to about 1300m on both sides. I've ridden it several times, and each time I've admired the pretty wooded glade at the top, and thought, what a lovely spot for wild camping. I finally managed that last Wednesday, started the climb late afternoon, with just time to get my tent up before sunset. Utterly silent, scent of pine trees, last of the risotto and last of the Chianti for supper, not a soul within miles, one of those super-clear nights when the whole sky is softly glowing with stars … that's a night that stays with you. Chilly though!
:!: 👍
st599_uk
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Re: Travelling to southern Europe without flying

Post by st599_uk »

PH wrote: 10 Oct 2022, 11:31am
st599_uk wrote: 10 Oct 2022, 10:35am The duplicate list or ATA Carnet is the proof that import duty is not required.
Yes, that's why I said
That's not to say it wouldn't have been easier with the right paperwork to begin with
You're wrong if you think that not having a Carnet makes you liable for import duty. I answered a specific point, that in marmite's scenario import duty could be reclaimed and I provided a link to the form to do so.
May I suggest if you want to discuss this further you start an appropriate thread? I didn't intend to divert a thread that's primarily about transport options. Thanks.
I don't think that not having a Carnet makes you liable for import duty - I think that being over your personal duty free limit does but that it's usually waived for obvious personal equipment accompanied by the owner.

It has been discussed on here previously and the Cycling UK webpage was finally updated to match government advice.

https://www.gov.uk/government/collectio ... nuary-2021

Unfortunately for those traveling to Southern Europe, Imports, EES, ETIAS etc. are all now a fact of life.
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Re: Travelling to southern Europe without flying

Post by PH »

I give up!
Do you even read your own links?
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