Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

[pwa]

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/ ... discontent

Are Cugel and Shakespeare one and the same?

[mattheus]

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/ ... discontent

Are Cugel and Shakespeare one and the same?

Bill gets to the point a lot quicker.

[pete75]

But using this misuse of powers by the police as evidence of a drift towards fascism overlooks the fact that, if anything, police handling of crowds of protesters has been even worse in the past. Most of us remember the excesses of the Miners' Strike of the 1980s. And after such excesses, what happens? Well, a light is shone on it by the media and, sometimes, by an inquiry. It does not go unremarked. The reputation of the police is damaged, and the co-operation of the public, which they rely on to do their day-to-day work, is undermined. So I'm not sure it is getting worse, and I don't think the police, as an institution, truly get away with it. They have a fine line to tread, and when they go too far they inflict damage on themselves. And when the crowds have dispersed and everyone goes back to normal, police officers have to move about amongst us singly or in pairs, reliant very largely on the support of the public for their own safety and security. If they lose that completely they will end up unable to leave their vehicles.

And while we have a large section of the public concerned about police excesses, as we do now, we are probably safe from things getting very much worse. It is when the public really get behind the police excesses that we need to worry, and I don't think that is happening. Of course there is good support for dragging road blockers off the highway to allow traffic flow to resume, but there isn't the same support for duffing them up in the back of a police van afterwards. There is still a fairly healthy consensus on what the police should and should not do when dealing with protesters, and when they appear to have gone beyond that the police come under scrutiny, as we see here in this Forum. That is a good thing. It is essential.

The difference is these powers are now being enshrined in law. Anything approaching fascism comes from the government. Doubtless the police would love to legally have the power to use Orgreave type tactics against demonstrations but that would have to be granted by the government, they can't do it by themselves without official permission.
In the days of the pit strike. they knew almost anything they did would be backed up by the government of the day.

If teh Police really cared about the support of the public, do youthink they would have acted how they did during the pit strike? The knowledge they'd have to police the mining areas after the strike was over didn't seem to moderate their actions in the slightest.

[pwa]

But using this misuse of powers by the police as evidence of a drift towards fascism overlooks the fact that, if anything, police handling of crowds of protesters has been even worse in the past. Most of us remember the excesses of the Miners' Strike of the 1980s. And after such excesses, what happens? Well, a light is shone on it by the media and, sometimes, by an inquiry. It does not go unremarked. The reputation of the police is damaged, and the co-operation of the public, which they rely on to do their day-to-day work, is undermined. So I'm not sure it is getting worse, and I don't think the police, as an institution, truly get away with it. They have a fine line to tread, and when they go too far they inflict damage on themselves. And when the crowds have dispersed and everyone goes back to normal, police officers have to move about amongst us singly or in pairs, reliant very largely on the support of the public for their own safety and security. If they lose that completely they will end up unable to leave their vehicles.

And while we have a large section of the public concerned about police excesses, as we do now, we are probably safe from things getting very much worse. It is when the public really get behind the police excesses that we need to worry, and I don't think that is happening. Of course there is good support for dragging road blockers off the highway to allow traffic flow to resume, but there isn't the same support for duffing them up in the back of a police van afterwards. There is still a fairly healthy consensus on what the police should and should not do when dealing with protesters, and when they appear to have gone beyond that the police come under scrutiny, as we see here in this Forum. That is a good thing. It is essential.

The difference is these powers are now being enshrined in law. Anything approaching fascism comes from the government. Doubtless the police would love to legally have the power to use Orgreave type tactics against demonstrations but that would have to be granted by the government, they can't do it by themselves without official permission.
In the days of the pit strike. they knew almost anything they did would be backed up by the government of the day.

If teh Police really cared about the support of the public, do youthink they would have acted how they did during the pit strike? The knowledge they'd have to police the mining areas after the strike was over didn't seem to moderate their actions in the slightest.

Anything still deemed controversial will probably be reviewed by a Labour government in a couple of years, so I'm not overly worried about that just yet. I believe there is also some disquiet from Conservative ranks. The police in the UK rely on a level of public consent. If that seriously breaks down, they are stuffed. We outnumber them hugely.

[mattheus]

Anything still deemed controversial will probably be reviewed by a Labour government in a couple of years, so I'm not overly worried about that just yet. I believe there is also some disquiet from Conservative ranks. The police in the UK rely on a level of public consent. If that seriously breaks down, they are stuffed. We outnumber them hugely.

I wish I had your optimism.

[Dingdong]

I'm beginning to think Sunak is not as bright as he's made out to be. Not only has he made the disastrous appointment of Cruella, but now he's backing Williamson who apparently told a Whitehall official to 'slit your own throat.'

To quote Burns: what a parcel of rogues.

It's certain there will be a winter of strikes, and likely power cuts and huge energy bills dropping onto doormats. Like I said upthread, if it comes down to heat or eat, civil unrest is not far away. I'll be keeping a weather eye out for any more police powers bills. As stated above, there's not really been a government challenging strike situation since the miners strike 40 years ago. A lot has changed since then, but i certainly don't see the attitudes or the legality of police, or their actions getting any better...

[pete75]

But using this misuse of powers by the police as evidence of a drift towards fascism overlooks the fact that, if anything, police handling of crowds of protesters has been even worse in the past. Most of us remember the excesses of the Miners' Strike of the 1980s. And after such excesses, what happens? Well, a light is shone on it by the media and, sometimes, by an inquiry. It does not go unremarked. The reputation of the police is damaged, and the co-operation of the public, which they rely on to do their day-to-day work, is undermined. So I'm not sure it is getting worse, and I don't think the police, as an institution, truly get away with it. They have a fine line to tread, and when they go too far they inflict damage on themselves. And when the crowds have dispersed and everyone goes back to normal, police officers have to move about amongst us singly or in pairs, reliant very largely on the support of the public for their own safety and security. If they lose that completely they will end up unable to leave their vehicles.

And while we have a large section of the public concerned about police excesses, as we do now, we are probably safe from things getting very much worse. It is when the public really get behind the police excesses that we need to worry, and I don't think that is happening. Of course there is good support for dragging road blockers off the highway to allow traffic flow to resume, but there isn't the same support for duffing them up in the back of a police van afterwards. There is still a fairly healthy consensus on what the police should and should not do when dealing with protesters, and when they appear to have gone beyond that the police come under scrutiny, as we see here in this Forum. That is a good thing. It is essential.

The difference is these powers are now being enshrined in law. Anything approaching fascism comes from the government. Doubtless the police would love to legally have the power to use Orgreave type tactics against demonstrations but that would have to be granted by the government, they can't do it by themselves without official permission.
In the days of the pit strike. they knew almost anything they did would be backed up by the government of the day.

If teh Police really cared about the support of the public, do youthink they would have acted how they did during the pit strike? The knowledge they'd have to police the mining areas after the strike was over didn't seem to moderate their actions in the slightest.

Anything still deemed controversial will probably be reviewed by a Labour government in a couple of years, so I'm not overly worried about that just yet. I believe there is also some disquiet from Conservative ranks. The police in the UK rely on a level of public consent. If that seriously breaks down, they are stuffed. We outnumber them hugely.

The police in every police state are hugely outnumbered. Doesn't seem to cause them many problems.

I'm not bothered about controversial legislation, I'm bothered about wrong legislation. The introduction of the NHS, minimum wage, equal pay for women etc were all controversial at the time.

[Dingdong]

Apparently there are 1400 previously EU laws that can be abolished under Rees moggs Brexit Bill.
How many of them will involve civil liberties and personal freedom. Enough, probably.....

[pwa]

Apparently there are 1400 previously EU laws that can be abolished under Rees moggs Brexit Bill.
How many of them will involve civil liberties and personal freedom. Enough, probably.....

A lot of Tory backbenchers are very keen on personal freedom, worryingly so in some cases, so I would not assume that the Tory contingent will move as one on these matters. And they haven't had a lot of party discipline of late.

[pete75]

Apparently there are 1400 previously EU laws that can be abolished under Rees moggs Brexit Bill.
How many of them will involve civil liberties and personal freedom. Enough, probably.....

A lot of Tory backbenchers are very keen on personal freedom, worryingly so in some cases, so I would not assume that the Tory contingent will move as one on these matters. And they haven't had a lot of party discipline of late.

In theory, when it comes to legislation they are generally of an authoritarian bent. Those so called Libertarians will all be voting for the new anti-demonstartion laws.

[mattheus]

Not just protestors - now journalists are on the wrong end of police enthusiasm:

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/police-shutt ... -arrested/

[reohn2]

The jounalist in question's report on LBC radio of exactly what happened when she was arrested:- https://youtu.be/avWcQwGhMiA

When you remove a jounralist from the scene you stop any reporting of the incindent,in this case a protest,which IMHO that was the police intention.

IMHO the vast majority of the UK public aren't aware of how bad it's become and how our freedoms are being eroded when a jounalist is arrested on the street doing her lawful job of work.
We are well on the road to fascism IMHO.

[pete75]

The jounalist in question's report on LBC radio of exactly what happened when she was arrested:- https://youtu.be/avWcQwGhMiA

When you remove a jounralist from the scene you stop any reporting of the incindent,in this case a protest,which IMHO that was the police intention.

IMHO the vast majority of the UK public aren't aware of how bad it's become and how our freedoms are being eroded when a jounalist is arrested on the street doing her lawful job of work.
We are well on the road to fascism IMHO.

Even a Conservative minister, Gillian Keegan, says what happened was wrong.

This is the third arrest of journalists in the last few days https://pressgazette.co.uk/three-journa ... justified/

Either the police are getting out of control or what they are doing has been planned by those in power.

[Biospace]

We are well on the road to fascism IMHO.

I, too, fear the same is possible if the usual checks and balances are not applied pdq.

Humans have been placed in positions for which they haven't the education, training, understanding or possibly the ability but cannot afford to admit it, given the nature of society, house prices and so on.

Those links to the journalists' stories are extremely disturbing. How can the dimmest of the dim fail to recognise official press passes?

[Stevek76]

In theory, when it comes to legislation they are generally of an authoritarian bent. Those so called Libertarians will all be voting for the new anti-demonstartion laws.

There are a few true libertarians in them, but yes rather more are more of the US style of libertarian where they largely only believe in their own personal freedom to screw everyone else over unhindered.