Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

[roubaixtuesday]

I think the overt use of force against opposition is an inherent part of fascism. The current regime (in as far as it's possible to discern one amidst the chaos) is perhaps better described as authoritarian nationalist.

We're a long way from fascism and I think it's a bit insulting to the victims of the genuine article to pretend otherwise.

Changes to the law on public demonstrations may well lead to a lot more overt use of force against people demonstrating against government policy. New legislation will give the police powers to impose conditions like start and finish times on public demonstrations. This could effectively ban them. For example a senior officer could allow a demonstartion and say start at 15:00 and finish at 15:15, making it almost impossible to hold, or if it does go ahead snd the demonstrators are still there at 15:16 go in hard with shields and truncheons. Giving a right wing, authoritarian organisation like a UK police force such control over demonstrations is certainly a step closer to fascism.

As this article argues the line between authoritarian nationalist populism and fascism is getting increasingly blurred. https://www.fairobserver.com/politics/a ... ws-152611/

I agree that the direction of travel is very worrying, specifically in, though not limited to, the examples you cite.

Nevertheless, I think we are a very, very long way from being a fascist state.

[Dingdong]

I think the overt use of force against opposition is an inherent part of fascism. The current regime (in as far as it's possible to discern one amidst the chaos) is perhaps better described as authoritarian nationalist.

We're a long way from fascism and I think it's a bit insulting to the victims of the genuine article to pretend otherwise.

Changes to the law on public demonstrations may well lead to a lot more overt use of force against people demonstrating against government policy. New legislation will give the police powers to impose conditions like start and finish times on public demonstrations. This could effectively ban them. For example a senior officer could allow a demonstartion and say start at 15:00 and finish at 15:15, making it almost impossible to hold, or if it does go ahead snd the demonstrators are still there at 15:16 go in hard with shields and truncheons. Giving a right wing, authoritarian organisation like a UK police force such control over demonstrations is certainly a step closer to fascism.

As this article argues the line between authoritarian nationalist populism and fascism is getting increasingly blurred. https://www.fairobserver.com/politics/a ... ws-152611/

I agree that the direction of travel is very worrying, specifically in, though not limited to, the examples you cite.

Nevertheless, I think we are a very, very long way from being a fascist state.

I would keep a weather eye on Italy, Sweden and particularly Spain, two out of the three already with influential fascist leaning governments. Spain of course has a long history of being under a Fascist regime, and I'm just watching through my fingers which way they will jump, as I'm planning on retirement there!

If ultra right leaning politicians and would be far right parties see easy success there, with little resistance from the 'people', then I'd say Britain was a shoe in for a fascist leaning government within the next ten years.

[pete75]

I think the overt use of force against opposition is an inherent part of fascism. The current regime (in as far as it's possible to discern one amidst the chaos) is perhaps better described as authoritarian nationalist.

We're a long way from fascism and I think it's a bit insulting to the victims of the genuine article to pretend otherwise.

Changes to the law on public demonstrations may well lead to a lot more overt use of force against people demonstrating against government policy. New legislation will give the police powers to impose conditions like start and finish times on public demonstrations. This could effectively ban them. For example a senior officer could allow a demonstartion and say start at 15:00 and finish at 15:15, making it almost impossible to hold, or if it does go ahead snd the demonstrators are still there at 15:16 go in hard with shields and truncheons. Giving a right wing, authoritarian organisation like a UK police force such control over demonstrations is certainly a step closer to fascism.

As this article argues the line between authoritarian nationalist populism and fascism is getting increasingly blurred. https://www.fairobserver.com/politics/a ... ws-152611/

I agree that the direction of travel is very worrying, specifically in, though not limited to, the examples you cite.

Nevertheless, I think we are a very, very long way from being a fascist state.

A journey of 10,000 miles starts with a single step.

[al_yrpal]

It may be called a rise of the fascists but any government in any country would be well advised to seek out why so many are anti immigration.
I'm aware that it's in the right wing that stokes up the fires but that there's a fire to be stoked should be of serious concern to all of us.
The world climate is changing and people fleeing from parts of the world where life is no longer liveable is here to stay.
As others have pointed out, the UK isn't the only country with problems over immigration. I believe the population feels that the new arrivals get an unfair slice of the cake having paid nothing into the system that is supporting them.
I was very surprised to find my French neighbours feel this way and they support the tactics used by the Police in Paris.

Much of France is in a perpetual state of panic or rage about uncontrolled immigration and its own profoundly alienated Muslim population.
Last week, in a televised interview, Macron defended his record on law and order after the sensational murder of Lola, a 12-year-old Parisian girl, but for the first time conceded an inconvenient truth: “If we look at crime in Paris today, we cannot fail to see that at least half of the crime comes from people who are foreigners, either illegal immigrants or those who are waiting for a residence permit.”

Even a year ago, Macron would have vehemently condemned such views from one of his Right-wing rivals. That he now says it himself is a sign of his desperation. For it implies not only that the French state has lost control of its borders, but that it is failing to integrate the rapidly growing proportion of the population whose origins lie in the former French colonies.

Paris is, after all, a microcosm of France. The lawless anarchy of the banlieues that surround the capital, amounting almost to low-level terrorism, is mirrored in almost every other city. The graffiti, vandalism and filth that disfigure the streets of Paris are ubiquitous elsewhere too.

The decaying infrastructure, the hideous monuments of avant garde “starchitects”, reflect the extinction of Parisian stylishness in art, dress and manners. And the conflagration that almost destroyed the Cathedral of Notre Dame in 2019 symbolised the collapse of Christianity in what was once a land more devoted to Our Lady than any other.

Al

[thirdcrank]

It may be called a rise of the fascists but any government in any country would be well advised to seek out why so many are anti immigration.
I'm aware that it's in the right wing that stokes up the fires but that there's a fire to be stoked should be of serious concern to all of us.
The world climate is changing and people fleeing from parts of the world where life is no longer liveable is here to stay.
As others have pointed out, the UK isn't the only country with problems over immigration. I believe the population feels that the new arrivals get an unfair slice of the cake having paid nothing into the system that is supporting them.
I was very surprised to find my French neighbours feel this way and they support the tactics used by the Police in Paris.

Much of France is in a perpetual state of panic or rage about uncontrolled immigration and its own profoundly alienated Muslim population.
Last week, in a televised interview, Macron defended his record on law and order after the sensational murder of Lola, a 12-year-old Parisian girl, but for the first time conceded an inconvenient truth: “If we look at crime in Paris today, we cannot fail to see that at least half of the crime comes from people who are foreigners, either illegal immigrants or those who are waiting for a residence permit.”

Even a year ago, Macron would have vehemently condemned such views from one of his Right-wing rivals. That he now says it himself is a sign of his desperation. For it implies not only that the French state has lost control of its borders, but that it is failing to integrate the rapidly growing proportion of the population whose origins lie in the former French colonies.

Paris is, after all, a microcosm of France. The lawless anarchy of the banlieues that surround the capital, amounting almost to low-level terrorism, is mirrored in almost every other city. The graffiti, vandalism and filth that disfigure the streets of Paris are ubiquitous elsewhere too.

The decaying infrastructure, the hideous monuments of avant garde “starchitects”, reflect the extinction of Parisian stylishness in art, dress and manners. And the conflagration that almost destroyed the Cathedral of Notre Dame in 2019 symbolised the collapse of Christianity in what was once a land more devoted to Our Lady than any other.

Al

"Older readers" may recall that when York Minster was struck by lightning and set on fire in 1984, some people blamed this on divine anger over the ordination as Bishop of Durham of David Jenkins. Apart from the timely intervention of the fire brigade the Minster's stone construction helped to stop greater damage. Fewer refugees to blame in those days, I suppose

[ossie]

For example a senior officer could allow a demonstartion and say start at 15:00 and finish at 15:15, making it almost impossible to hold, or if it does go ahead snd the demonstrators are still there at 15:16 go in hard with shields and truncheons. Giving a right wing, authoritarian organisation like a UK police force such control over demonstrations is certainly a step closer to fascism.

I think if you had any idea what was involved in policing a demonstration you'd realise how daft your scenario is. Yep lets take loads of officers away from their duties or pay them overtime, move them from other areas, possibly get mutual aid, mounted section, dog section, helicopter etc. Then work together with other agencies, including ambulance, fire brigade, the local authority to close close roads etc......only to give them a 15 minute window before going in hard a minute later with shields and truncheons ...

This isn't Moscow or St Petersburg.

ps how about some gold old 'kettling' as well for good measure, the taxpayer might as well get their monies worth.

[Dingdong]

It may be called a rise of the fascists but any government in any country would be well advised to seek out why so many are anti immigration.
I'm aware that it's in the right wing that stokes up the fires but that there's a fire to be stoked should be of serious concern to all of us.
The world climate is changing and people fleeing from parts of the world where life is no longer liveable is here to stay.
As others have pointed out, the UK isn't the only country with problems over immigration. I believe the population feels that the new arrivals get an unfair slice of the cake having paid nothing into the system that is supporting them.
I was very surprised to find my French neighbours feel this way and they support the tactics used by the Police in Paris.

Paris is, after all, a microcosm of France. The lawless anarchy of the banlieues that surround the capital, amounting almost to low-level terrorism, is mirrored in almost every other city. The graffiti, vandalism and filth that disfigure the streets of Paris are ubiquitous elsewhere too.


Al

You couldn't be more wrong. It's like saying London is a microcosm of the UK! Try saying that on the street in Glasgow, or Belfast.

I worked in the 18th arrondissement many years ago, and Paris is so alien to the rest of France is hard to explain. It's like any other capital city: extremes happen, and then happen regularly enough that the population become inured to it The South of France is atypical also, the people there say they have very little in common with Parisians, in fact of you park a car with '75' plate on it (Ile de France) anywhere South of Lyon, it's likely to be keyed or vandalised. Put bluntly, Parisians are not at all popular anywhere else in France. Cities like Lyon, Montpellier and Perpignan are actually very well integrated (especially Montpellier which had over 30% of its population in the form of students, a large number from outside France).

Also Parisian French is very particular, probably akin to RP in the UK, most people from Paris will have at least some difficulty understanding the accents of the South and West of France. Try ordering a Pain Chocolat in southern Boulangerie, you'll be looked at with a risable scowl. In the South, they call it a Chocolatine. Or Choco for short. The pronounce Pain, Demain and Semaine so differently in the South that of you try to use your school French, you will get absolutely no comprehension at all!

In short, the rest of France sees itself as set apart both socially, culturally, culinary and politically from IDF. For instance in most small towns and villages in France you'll find only a handful of non white French (in some places the population is 100% white French), so realistically Paris is so far from a microcosm of the rest of France, it's not difficult to see how the voting patterns in rural and southern areas reflect this.

[roubaixtuesday]

It may be called a rise of the fascists but any government in any country would be well advised to seek out why so many are anti immigration.
I'm aware that it's in the right wing that stokes up the fires but that there's a fire to be stoked should be of serious concern to all of us.
The world climate is changing and people fleeing from parts of the world where life is no longer liveable is here to stay.
As others have pointed out, the UK isn't the only country with problems over immigration. I believe the population feels that the new arrivals get an unfair slice of the cake having paid nothing into the system that is supporting them.
I was very surprised to find my French neighbours feel this way and they support the tactics used by the Police in Paris.

Paris is, after all, a microcosm of France. The lawless anarchy of the banlieues that surround the capital, amounting almost to low-level terrorism, is mirrored in almost every other city. The graffiti, vandalism and filth that disfigure the streets of Paris are ubiquitous elsewhere too.


Al

You couldn't be more wrong. It's like saying London is a microcosm of the UK! Try saying that on the street in Glasgow, or Belfast.

I worked in the 18th arrondissement many years ago, and Paris is so alien to the rest of France is hard to explain. It's like any other capital city: extremes happen, and then happen regularly enough that the population become inured to it The South of France is atypical also, the people there say they have very little in common with Parisians, in fact of you park a car with '75' plate on it (Ile de France) anywhere South of Lyon, it's likely to be keyed or vandalised. Put bluntly, Parisians are not at all popular anywhere else in France. Cities like Lyon, Montpellier and Perpignan are actually very well integrated (especially Montpellier which had over 30% of its population in the form of students, a large number from outside France).

Also Parisian French is very particular, probably akin to RP in the UK, most people from Paris will have at least some difficulty understanding the accents of the South and West of France. Try ordering a Pain Chocolat in southern Boulangerie, you'll be looked at with a risable scowl. In the South, they call it a Chocolatine. Or Choco for short. The pronounce Pain, Demain and Semaine so differently in the South that of you try to use your school French, you will get absolutely no comprehension at all!

In short, the rest of France sees itself as set apart both socially, culturally, culinary and politically from IDF. For instance in most small towns and villages in France you'll find only a handful of non white French (in some places the population is 100% white French), so realistically Paris is so far from a microcosm of the rest of France, it's not difficult to see how the voting patterns in rural and southern areas reflect this.

The voting map for the recent presidential elections certainly suggests that Paris, far from being a microcosm, is less susceptible to right wing extremism than most other parts of France.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Fr ... l_election

[pete75]

For example a senior officer could allow a demonstartion and say start at 15:00 and finish at 15:15, making it almost impossible to hold, or if it does go ahead snd the demonstrators are still there at 15:16 go in hard with shields and truncheons. Giving a right wing, authoritarian organisation like a UK police force such control over demonstrations is certainly a step closer to fascism.

I think if you had any idea what was involved in policing a demonstration you'd realise how daft your scenario is. Yep lets take loads of officers away from their duties or pay them overtime, move them from other areas, possibly get mutual aid, mounted section, dog section, helicopter etc. Then work together with other agencies, including ambulance, fire brigade, the local authority to close close roads etc......only to give them a 15 minute window before going in hard a minute later with shields and truncheons ...

This isn't Moscow or St Petersburg.

ps how about some gold old 'kettling' as well for good measure, the taxpayer might as well get their monies worth.

If the demonstartion last for 15 minutes or 4 hours they'd still wnat to do all the things you describe so the idea of giving a short window would really be to make sure it didn't happen at all. If it did happen and overan it would give them an excuse to attack demonstrators with the idea of deterring them altogether.
What on earth do they need mounted officers for - to charge the crowds like they did at Orgreave? Presumably the dogs are there to attack and bite people.

I suspect once the police get these powers they'll make demonstrations so difficult to hold they'll stop altogether except , perhaps, for groups whose values they share like the EDL, Football Lads for Democracy, Britain First etc.

Kettling? Well they seem to be very keen on that, presumably as a way to "punish" the demonstrators.

[Stevek76]

Use of kettling isn't consistent across forces, though the met certainly like to use it. A fair few others do seem to recognise it mostly just aggravates the situation by keeping those with lower/no intent to cause serious trouble from going home where they then get annoyed actually become more likely to cause issues bot through annoyance and getting encouraged by the usual anarchists that like to tag along on some of these things.

Still as for facism, the following is of course entirely normal in a supposed liberal democracy:

https://twitter.com/MetPoliceEvents/sta ... 2256050176

"All those arrested are suspected of engaging in conspiracy to cause public nuisance contrary to Section 78 Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022."

[Dingdong]

I came across this on the Liberty website 'guide to kettling':

DO I HAVE TO ANSWER POLICE QUESTIONS DURING A KETTLE?

You have no legal obligation to answer police questions at protests, including during a kettle. The only exception is if you are engaging in “anti-social” behaviour. That is, behaviour that causes, or is likely to cause, “harassment, alarm or distress”.

The last bit is the 'gimme', my colleague was detained, questioned, and subsequently let go at an NHS protest earlier this year. The reason for the 'arrest' was precisely the above, the police officer in charge maintained that he was causing 'alarm and distress ', to whom? To other police officers. Yeah, right. Basically they've got you six ways till Xmas, damned if you say nothing,damned if you do.

Fascism is never an overnight phenomenon, it takes time to evolve, to percolate, often creeping up on society, when they least expect it.

[pwa]

But using this misuse of powers by the police as evidence of a drift towards fascism overlooks the fact that, if anything, police handling of crowds of protesters has been even worse in the past. Most of us remember the excesses of the Miners' Strike of the 1980s. And after such excesses, what happens? Well, a light is shone on it by the media and, sometimes, by an inquiry. It does not go unremarked. The reputation of the police is damaged, and the co-operation of the public, which they rely on to do their day-to-day work, is undermined. So I'm not sure it is getting worse, and I don't think the police, as an institution, truly get away with it. They have a fine line to tread, and when they go too far they inflict damage on themselves. And when the crowds have dispersed and everyone goes back to normal, police officers have to move about amongst us singly or in pairs, reliant very largely on the support of the public for their own safety and security. If they lose that completely they will end up unable to leave their vehicles.

And while we have a large section of the public concerned about police excesses, as we do now, we are probably safe from things getting very much worse. It is when the public really get behind the police excesses that we need to worry, and I don't think that is happening. Of course there is good support for dragging road blockers off the highway to allow traffic flow to resume, but there isn't the same support for duffing them up in the back of a police van afterwards. There is still a fairly healthy consensus on what the police should and should not do when dealing with protesters, and when they appear to have gone beyond that the police come under scrutiny, as we see here in this Forum. That is a good thing. It is essential.

[francovendee]

It may be called a rise of the fascists but any government in any country would be well advised to seek out why so many are anti immigration.
I'm aware that it's in the right wing that stokes up the fires but that there's a fire to be stoked should be of serious concern to all of us.
The world climate is changing and people fleeing from parts of the world where life is no longer liveable is here to stay.
As others have pointed out, the UK isn't the only country with problems over immigration. I believe the population feels that the new arrivals get an unfair slice of the cake having paid nothing into the system that is supporting them.
I was very surprised to find my French neighbours feel this way and they support the tactics used by the Police in Paris.

Paris is, after all, a microcosm of France. The lawless anarchy of the banlieues that surround the capital, amounting almost to low-level terrorism, is mirrored in almost every other city. The graffiti, vandalism and filth that disfigure the streets of Paris are ubiquitous elsewhere too.


Al

You couldn't be more wrong. It's like saying London is a microcosm of the UK! Try saying that on the street in Glasgow, or Belfast.

I worked in the 18th arrondissement many years ago, and Paris is so alien to the rest of France is hard to explain. It's like any other capital city: extremes happen, and then happen regularly enough that the population become inured to it The South of France is atypical also, the people there say they have very little in common with Parisians, in fact of you park a car with '75' plate on it (Ile de France) anywhere South of Lyon, it's likely to be keyed or vandalised. Put bluntly, Parisians are not at all popular anywhere else in France. Cities like Lyon, Montpellier and Perpignan are actually very well integrated (especially Montpellier which had over 30% of its population in the form of students, a large number from outside France).

Also Parisian French is very particular, probably akin to RP in the UK, most people from Paris will have at least some difficulty understanding the accents of the South and West of France. Try ordering a Pain Chocolat in southern Boulangerie, you'll be looked at with a risable scowl. In the South, they call it a Chocolatine. Or Choco for short. The pronounce Pain, Demain and Semaine so differently in the South that of you try to use your school French, you will get absolutely no comprehension at all!

In short, the rest of France sees itself as set apart both socially, culturally, culinary and politically from IDF. For instance in most small towns and villages in France you'll find only a handful of non white French (in some places the population is 100% white French), so realistically Paris is so far from a microcosm of the rest of France, it's not difficult to see how the voting patterns in rural and southern areas reflect this.

I tend to agree with you and see nothing that AL suggests, certainly no perpetual panic and decaying infrastructure in these parts. I wholly agree that Parisians are regarded differently. We've two families who now live here full time. I get on well with both but the rest of our neighbours see them much like us; foreigners who've chosen to live in the hamlet.
We don't have many black people living near here. The few you see are frequently children adopted by a white family.
My son, who went to school here, tells me the French are very openly racist. I can't verify this as it's something I've not discussed with friends.

[mattheus]

...

Basically they've got you six ways till Xmas, damned if you say nothing,damned if you do.

Fascism is never an overnight phenomenon, it takes time to evolve, to percolate, often creeping up on society, when they least expect it.

Yup. That's why I think it's right for us to be standing upto this.

I don't agree with pwa's view. My impression formed over recent decade is that things ARE becoming worse, and if you don't like my personal view, consider that UK Gov is now passing laws to make things worse.

But using this misuse of powers by the police as evidence of a drift towards fascism overlooks the fact that, if anything, police handling of crowds of protesters has been even worse in the past. Most of us remember the excesses of the Miners' Strike of the 1980s.

I don't accept that as a useful marker, because there has been no industrial action since the Miners' Strike that is even remotely similar.
Things are currently on a downward trend. I'm certain of this.

[in4time]

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/ ... discontent