Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

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Dingdong
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Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Dingdong »

Suella Braverman's recent statements about immigration, especially concerning people arriving on boats as 'an invasion on our South coast' make my stomach churn. It's statements like this from the Home Office which provoke the extreme right to even more and more dangerous acts. She should be ashamed. It's clear a new home grown terrorist threat is on the rise.

Just when you thought it was safe to put away the neo nazi label, she's back. It beggars belief how patently racist views like this can be tolerated in modern government, in what is supposed to be a first world democracy, a 'decent' and welcoming society.

Britain is in many ways in a similar situation to Germany in the 1930's: economic hardship everywhere, food and fuel crisis, interest rates rocketing, collapse of the housing market and probably a deep, lasting recession starting just about soon. Italy and Sweden have taken strong and purposeful steps to extreme right governments. Spain will not need much of a shove to return to a fascist past. Orban in Hungary and Erdogan in Turkey are already there.There are only a few countries left to defend democracy, if Britain and France follow suit, heaven help us all. It all comes apart very quickly. I don't think we realise in the UK just how close we are to the precipice.

There is a parallel with third generation North Africans in France being the most vehemently opposed to immigration from other African nations. It's called Post Colonial Identity. And it's on the rise in this country.

If we put up with this ...
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mjr
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

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Ben@Forest
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Ben@Forest »

Dingdong wrote: 3 Nov 2022, 5:38am Britain is in many ways in a similar situation to Germany in the 1930's: economic hardship everywhere, food and fuel crisis, interest rates rocketing, collapse of the housing market and probably a deep, lasting recession starting just about soon...
That also describes Britain's situation in the 1930s. The British Library describes it as:

Through the 1920s, Britain's economy was already struggling to pay for the effects of World War I. Then, in 1929, the US stock market crashed. World trade slumped, prices fell, credit dried up, and many countries protected their domestic market by taxing foreign imports. The value of British exports halved, plunging its industrial areas into poverty: by the end of 1930, unemployment more than doubled to 20 per cent. Public spending was cut and taxes raised, but this depressed the economy and cost even more jobs. Finally in 1931 the pound was devalued by 25 per cent, helping exporters by making their goods cheaper abroad, and helping to start the recovery. Through the 1930s, poverty and unemployment blighted large areas of Wales and northern England. Around London, however, some parts of the economy thrived: the suburbs enjoyed a building boom, helped by cheap interest rates.

Swap the effects of WW1 for Covid and a Russian war (and possibly the effects of an ill-advised Kwarteng budget) and much of the above looks similar - though we don't have the massive unemployment. We didn't throw ourselves into fascism then.
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simonineaston
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

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The news that some asylum seekers were dumped in central London late evening, with no coats, no money, no food and no contacts is almost unbelievable. As it stands, whether we like it or not, these people have every right to come here and unless on close examination it turns out that some may not have the legal qualifications to stay, then they're guests in our country and to treat them like this is appaling behaviour - imagine this happening to UK citizens, in some other country - boy oh boy there'd be such a fuss!!
The government of the day - of whichever political persuasion - needs to get a grip and start putting in place the mechanisms whereby immigrants can be treated with some human respect. And if that costs money, in the form of proper policing of sea appoaches, border control staff, processing hostels and staff enough to decide whether they can stay, within hours not months and years... then so be it.
The problem isn't going to go away, no matter how unpleasantly bigoted sundry voters are! The likelihood is that increasing climate chaos will mean the current trickle will steadily turn into a flood as the UK becomes a better and better bet for economic and geophysical migrants. If we don't get the right things in place now, we're going to be in for a really rough ride, in years and decades to come.
The current attempt by the Tory party to turn this difficult situation into votes is disgusting.
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
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mjr
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

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simonineaston wrote: 3 Nov 2022, 1:03pm The news that some asylum seekers were dumped in central London late evening, with no coats, no money, no food and no contacts is almost unbelievable. As it stands, whether we like it or not, these people have every right to come here and unless on close examination it turns out that some may not have the legal qualifications to stay, then they're guests in our country and to treat them like this is appaling behaviour - imagine this happening to UK citizens, in some other country - boy oh boy there'd be such a fuss!!
Weren't they dumped off a bus at a major train station, ill-equipped and left to fend for themselves, with no accommodation or onward travel from the transport operator (apparently the Home Office)? Well, train companies frequently do that to UK nationals in this country and there is generally almost no fuss, with attempts to reclaim the cost of hotels or onward taxis refused at least at first because the passengers did not get prior approval in writing from staff who could not be found at the station and did not answer phones or text messages.

It's wrong and should not happen, but it sounds like the refugee-applicants were treated pretty much like UK subjects, although they would have been less likely to have a credit card they could use to bridge the gap and were probably trying to navigate an unfamiliar place and customs in a second language. Total failure of a duty of care by the Home Office, which seems worse than a train operator messing up.
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Ben@Forest
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Ben@Forest »

mjr wrote: 3 Nov 2022, 1:24pmWell, train companies frequently do that to UK nationals in this country and there is generally almost no fuss, with attempts to reclaim the cost of hotels or onward taxis refused at least at first because the passengers did not get prior approval in writing from staff who could not be found at the station and did not answer phones or text messages.

It's wrong and should not happen, but it sounds like the refugee-applicants were treated pretty much like UK subjects, although they would have been less likely to have a credit card they could use to bridge the gap and were probably trying to navigate an unfamiliar place and customs in a second language. Total failure of a duty of care by the Home Office, which seems worse than a train operator messing up.
This recently happened to a (UK) 16 year old with no credit card etc and not able to get a hotel room because he was not 18. It was only at the tearful entreaties of his mother that a large hotel chain 'broke' the policy to let him stay overnight. Whichever train company it was profusely apologised of course - but it'll happen again.
Dingdong
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Dingdong »

Fwiw, I'm not saying Braverman is an out and out fascist, but she is definitely leading us in a direction where fascism can flourish. Where neo Nazism becomes a new normal.

It looks likely that in Europe, only the UK, France and perhaps Holland and Denmark will be the last bastions of democracy and an anti fascist sensibility. If Britain is lost, God help us all. Climate change, fuel shortages and melting glaciers all pale into insignificance in the face of another Fascist empire taking control of Europe, and by and by, Britain.
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simonineaston
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

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Climate change, fuel shortages and melting glaciers all pale into insignificance in the face of another Fascist empire...
Funnily enough I take a similar-but-opposite view - that the climate chaos will, sooner or later, become an existential threat and that most governments, including ours here in the UK of course will adopt paramilitary measures in order to attempt (but fail) to keep order. What fun !!
What we see now is just the thin end of the wedge.
S
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Dingdong
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Dingdong »

simonineaston wrote: 3 Nov 2022, 3:14pm
Climate change, fuel shortages and melting glaciers all pale into insignificance in the face of another Fascist empire...
Funnily enough I take a similar-but-opposite view - that the climate chaos will, sooner or later, become an existential threat and that most governments, including ours here in the UK of course will adopt paramilitary measures in order to attempt (but fail) to keep order. What fun !!
What we see now is just the thin end of the wedge.
I'm looking through my fingers at this winter in the UK: if people are truly faced with the prospect of heating or eating, then civil disobedience is a shoe in. Martial law and paramilitary intervention, previously thought 'last resort', could easily become the new normal. It'll start with power cuts, then more frequent outages, and then heaven help us. The world is turned on its head. Watch this space.
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by mattheus »

Dingdong wrote: 3 Nov 2022, 3:41pm I'm looking through my fingers at this winter in the UK: if people are truly faced with the prospect of heating or eating, then civil disobedience is a shoe in. Martial law and paramilitary intervention, previously thought 'last resort', could easily become the new normal.
Suella's recent law/order/thought-crime bill will have interesting effects on this. I've seen it suggested that if peaceful protest is being outlawed, better to mount violent protest (e.g. destruction of govt/oil company property) in a clandestine manner.
Ben@Forest
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Ben@Forest »

mattheus wrote: 3 Nov 2022, 4:39pm Suella's recent law/order/thought-crime bill will have interesting effects on this. I've seen it suggested that if peaceful protest is being outlawed, better to mount violent protest (e.g. destruction of govt/oil company property) in a clandestine manner.
The Bill was introduced into Parliament in March 2021. For nearly all of its progress through Commons and Lords the Home Secretary was Priti Patel. Though of course, as with all government bills, the principle of collective responsibility applies.
mattheus
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by mattheus »

Ben@Forest wrote: 3 Nov 2022, 6:20pm
Dingdong wrote: 3 Nov 2022, 3:41pm
I'm looking through my fingers at this winter in the UK: if people are truly faced with the prospect of heating or eating, then civil disobedience is a shoe in. Martial law and paramilitary intervention, previously thought 'last resort', could easily become the new normal. It'll start with power cuts, then more frequent outages, and then heaven help us. The world is turned on its head. Watch this space.
mattheus wrote: 3 Nov 2022, 4:39pm Suella's recent law/order/thought-crime bill will have interesting effects on this. I've seen it suggested that if peaceful protest is being outlawed, better to mount violent protest (e.g. destruction of govt/oil company property) in a clandestine manner.
The Bill was introduced into Parliament in March 2021. For nearly all of its progress through Commons and Lords the Home Secretary was Priti Patel. Though of course, as with all government bills, the principle of collective responsibility applies.
Context, m'boy. [I've re-inserted the relevant post that you edited out, so that it's clear what I was replying to.] it doesn't matter who brought it in to the issue of civil disobedience due to poverty and widespread disatisfaction with the government.

Of course this thread is about Braverman; do you think she opposed the recent changes?
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by mattheus »

Ben@Forest wrote: 3 Nov 2022, 6:20pm

The Bill was introduced into Parliament in March 2021. For nearly all of its progress through Commons and Lords the Home Secretary was Priti Patel. Though of course, as with all government bills, the principle of collective responsibility applies.
Do you think this is a good thing:
Suella Braverman is quietly handing herself new powers to clamp down on the government’s political opponents, civil right advocates have warned.

The home secretary pushed through a last-minute amendment to a widely criticised anti-protest bill on Tuesday that would allow her to apply for injunctions against anyone she deems ‘likely’ to carry out protests that could cause ‘serious disruption’ to ‘key national infrastructure’, prevent access to ‘essential’ goods or services, or have a ‘serious adverse effect on public safety’. The proposal would also give police the power to arrest anyone they suspect to be breaching such an injunction.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/public ... i-protest/ 18 October 2022,
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Vorpal »

mjr wrote: 3 Nov 2022, 1:24pm
Weren't they dumped off a bus at a major train station, ill-equipped and left to fend for themselves, with no accommodation or onward travel from the transport operator (apparently the Home Office)? Well, train companies frequently do that to UK nationals in this country and there is generally almost no fuss, with attempts to reclaim the cost of hotels or onward taxis refused at least at first because the passengers did not get prior approval in writing from staff who could not be found at the station and did not answer phones or text messages.

It's wrong and should not happen, but it sounds like the refugee-applicants were treated pretty much like UK subjects, although they would have been less likely to have a credit card they could use to bridge the gap and were probably trying to navigate an unfamiliar place and customs in a second language. Total failure of a duty of care by the Home Office, which seems worse than a train operator messing up.
There is a big difference between those two.

While both are wrong, people who live in the UK are *far* more likely to have the resources to cope with the situation, which is why there is far less 'fuss'. Resources include: food, clothes, money, phones, friends and family within a few hundred miles, language skills, cultural understanding, area/geographic knowledge, etc.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
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mjr
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by mjr »

Vorpal wrote: 4 Nov 2022, 8:54am There is a big difference between those two.
Which I pointed out in my post already.

More details are coming out: the chaotic loading of the coach, and giving the refugee -applicants phones but no credit and flat batteries. But the BBC would rather investigate Albanian gangs.
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