Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

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reohn2
Posts: 45143
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by reohn2 »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 25 May 2023, 10:43am
reohn2 wrote: 25 May 2023, 7:59am PWA
She did enquire about claiming the fine on her parliamentary expenses...
You sure about that? What's your source?
Think my initqial source was the Guardian,so won't be believed by some on here though as pete75 says there's plenty of others to google
The National Scot:- https://www.thenational.scot/news/23474 ... first-day/
The Mail online:- https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... enses.html
The Telegraph:- https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... -servants/

Glad to be of help :D
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Jdsk
Posts: 24486
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Jdsk »

AFAICT:

She enquired about a hypothetical fine when she was a new MP, according to Wragg. The actual fine that was imposed was some years later.

Jonathan
reohn2
Posts: 45143
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by reohn2 »

Jdsk wrote: 25 May 2023, 5:46pm AFAICT:

She enquired about a hypothetical fine when she was a new MP, according to Wragg. The actual fine that was imposed was some years later.

Jonathan
Why would anyone ask such an idiotic and stupid question?
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
reohn2
Posts: 45143
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by reohn2 »

On the subject of fascism please listen the the chemical warfare expert banned by the government for criticising them it is an eye opener as how low the government have sunk :-
https://youtu.be/TjJzfaLtKc8
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
pwa
Posts: 17357
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by pwa »

pete75 wrote: 25 May 2023, 9:56am
pwa wrote: 24 May 2023, 7:02pm I don't think Braverman will be brought down over this speeding thing. She plainly didn't try to dodge the penalty for her offence, she just sought a private session rather than a group session. And if, as reported, she drags a contingent of body guard with her wherever she goes, that makes sense. She may have been wrong to ask civil servants to make enquiries about that for her, but surely that is debatable, given that it affected her diary. And in the end she just took the points and fine, like anyone else who could not attend the course. If she slipped up, it was in a small and technical way.

As yet I have no idea of the extent of her speeding, or the road conditions where it happened, so I'm not going to pass judgement on that beyond saying that as she admits the offence she rightly paid the penalty and carries the points on her licence.

What should sink her is her daft policy on small boat migration.
The point is she is Home Secretary, responsible for law and order in the UK. She's been caught breaking the law, and for that reason should be sacked.
Mmm. Where do you draw the line on that one? We currently have a Health Minister here in Wales who has got to the point where she has had her licence taken off her. And kept her job. In comparison, three points for a one-off seems mild.
roubaixtuesday
Posts: 5801
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by roubaixtuesday »

pete75 wrote: 25 May 2023, 4:25pm
roubaixtuesday wrote: 25 May 2023, 3:35pm
pete75 wrote: 25 May 2023, 3:31pm

She enquired about claiming speeding fines on expenses. This was a speeding fine. Work it out.
Nonsense. The original claim was "She did enquire about claiming the fine on her parliamentary expenses..."

It clearly relates to the current offence and is not true. Note the definite article.

Work it out.
She enquired about claiming speeding fines on expenses. This was a speeding fine. Therefore it was an enquiry about claiming this and any other speeding offences.
You're clutching at straws in trying to defend the woman. (deleted by moderator)
I haven't defended her. She's despicable.

Think about why you posted your misogynist deleted insult.
Jdsk
Posts: 24486
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Jdsk »

The Home Secretary has been found to have unlawfully detained two women and their children while applying a secret policy:

The judgment:
https://bhattmurphy.co.uk/files/JAF%20c ... 856578.pdf

https://bhattmurphy.co.uk/in-the-news/t ... y-unlawful

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... d-unlawful

Jonathan
pete75
Posts: 16356
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by pete75 »

pwa wrote: 25 May 2023, 7:05pm
pete75 wrote: 25 May 2023, 9:56am
pwa wrote: 24 May 2023, 7:02pm I don't think Braverman will be brought down over this speeding thing. She plainly didn't try to dodge the penalty for her offence, she just sought a private session rather than a group session. And if, as reported, she drags a contingent of body guard with her wherever she goes, that makes sense. She may have been wrong to ask civil servants to make enquiries about that for her, but surely that is debatable, given that it affected her diary. And in the end she just took the points and fine, like anyone else who could not attend the course. If she slipped up, it was in a small and technical way.

As yet I have no idea of the extent of her speeding, or the road conditions where it happened, so I'm not going to pass judgement on that beyond saying that as she admits the offence she rightly paid the penalty and carries the points on her licence.

What should sink her is her daft policy on small boat migration.
The point is she is Home Secretary, responsible for law and order in the UK. She's been caught breaking the law, and for that reason should be sacked.
Mmm. Where do you draw the line on that one? We currently have a Health Minister here in Wales who has got to the point where she has had her licence taken off her. And kept her job. In comparison, three points for a one-off seems mild.
She's not responsible for law and order ie preventing law breaking,
Last edited by pete75 on 27 May 2023, 12:28am, edited 1 time in total.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Pebble
Posts: 1930
Joined: 7 Jun 2020, 11:59pm

Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Pebble »

pete75 wrote: 27 May 2023, 12:28am
roubaixtuesday wrote: 25 May 2023, 10:32pm
pete75 wrote: 25 May 2023, 4:25pm
She enquired about claiming speeding fines on expenses. This was a speeding fine. Therefore it was an enquiry about claiming this and any other speeding offences.
You're clutching at straws in trying to defend the woman. (deleted by moderator)
I haven't defended her. She's despicable.

Think about why you posted your misogynist deleted insult.
(deleted by moderator)
I really don't see what the problem is, she done a bit of speeding, something that probably 95% of drivers do on every single journey they make, she got a ticket which is remarkably unlucky, she then enquired if she could do the awareness course in private, what exactly was wrong in asking that question? She then paid the fine and took her three points. She sounds like a regular person to me....

(deleted by moderator)
UpWrong
Posts: 2401
Joined: 31 May 2009, 12:16pm
Location: Portsmouth, Hampshire

Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by UpWrong »

Jdsk wrote: 26 May 2023, 5:53pm The Home Secretary has been found to have unlawfully detained two women and their children while applying a secret policy:

The judgment:
https://bhattmurphy.co.uk/files/JAF%20c ... 856578.pdf

https://bhattmurphy.co.uk/in-the-news/t ... y-unlawful

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... d-unlawful

Jonathan
That policy predates Suella Bravermann. I know because my wife got detained for an allegedly unpaid NHS debt when we flew back from Spain. I think it was 2017. Fortunately I had a copy of the payment receipt in my cloud so we were soon on our way. There's a story around how vigorously hospital finance officers were pursuing debts at that time, probably under instructions from the home office. I was quite taken aback by intrusive questioning by NHS finance staff .
Psamathe
Posts: 17617
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Psamathe »

Pebble wrote: 27 May 2023, 1:02am
pete75 wrote: 27 May 2023, 12:28am
roubaixtuesday wrote: 25 May 2023, 10:32pm

I haven't defended her. She's despicable.

Think about why you posted your misogynist deleted insult.
(deleted by moderator)
I really don't see what the problem is, she done a bit of speeding, something that probably 95% of drivers do on every single journey they make, she got a ticket which is remarkably unlucky, she then enquired if she could do the awareness course in private, what exactly was wrong in asking that question? She then paid the fine and took her three points. She sounds like a regular person to me....

(deleted by moderator)
The problem is it appears that she asked the Civil Servants to investigate the "private speeding course" and using Civil Servants for personal matters is against the Ministerial Code and breaking that code is a resignation/sacking offence.

That said seems it isn't the first time she's broken the Ministerial Code and she seems to regard herself as "above" such rules and reality is, weak leadership seems to mean she is.

Ian
Pebble
Posts: 1930
Joined: 7 Jun 2020, 11:59pm

Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Pebble »

Psamathe wrote: 27 May 2023, 10:09am
Pebble wrote: 27 May 2023, 1:02am
pete75 wrote: 27 May 2023, 12:28am
(deleted by moderator)
I really don't see what the problem is, she done a bit of speeding, something that probably 95% of drivers do on every single journey they make, she got a ticket which is remarkably unlucky, she then enquired if she could do the awareness course in private, what exactly was wrong in asking that question? She then paid the fine and took her three points. She sounds like a regular person to me....

(deleted by moderator)
The problem is it appears that she asked the Civil Servants to investigate the "private speeding course" and using Civil Servants for personal matters is against the Ministerial Code and breaking that code is a resignation/sacking offence.

That said seems it isn't the first time she's broken the Ministerial Code and she seems to regard herself as "above" such rules and reality is, weak leadership seems to mean she is.

Ian
I would like to see more context around this. Did she simply say to someone in the office "do you know if you can have a one on one course?" or did she demand a full written report into all the possibilities of what would be least damaging. If the later, then I would agree that would be wrong.

It appears the long knives are out for her, and everything she does or says is blown out of all proportion. She is being relentlessly bullied so care needs to be taken into what to believe.
Psamathe
Posts: 17617
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Psamathe »

Pebble wrote: 27 May 2023, 10:23am
Psamathe wrote: 27 May 2023, 10:09am
Pebble wrote: 27 May 2023, 1:02am
I really don't see what the problem is, she done a bit of speeding, something that probably 95% of drivers do on every single journey they make, she got a ticket which is remarkably unlucky, she then enquired if she could do the awareness course in private, what exactly was wrong in asking that question? She then paid the fine and took her three points. She sounds like a regular person to me....

(deleted by moderator)
The problem is it appears that she asked the Civil Servants to investigate the "private speeding course" and using Civil Servants for personal matters is against the Ministerial Code and breaking that code is a resignation/sacking offence.
...
Ian
I would like to see more context around this. Did she simply say to someone in the office "do you know if you can have a one on one course?" or did she demand a full written report into all the possibilities of what would be least damaging. If the later, then I would agree that would be wrong.

It appears the long knives are out for her, and everything she does or says is blown out of all proportion. She is being relentlessly bullied so care needs to be taken into what to believe.
I've spent too much time recently Googl'ing for others google.co.uk.

Either way, Civil Servants are not provided for advice on personal matters and taking their time on such issues is against the Ministerial Code.

Ms Braverman has been evasive but, report in the Times
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/f247693a-f71d-11ed-8aec-1014d109ef78?shareToken=adaf1842048859b4310f52f3c419a2a3 wrote:Suella Braverman asked civil servants to help her avoid a speeding fine and points on her licence by arranging a private one-to-one driving awareness course.
And when Braverman asked about it she just gets evasive and fails tom answer the question - so one must assume that if she didn't she's just say "No I didn't" rather than just evade the question and fail to answer.
And it certainly too quite a few Civil Servants involvement
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/may/22/top-home-office-mandarin-knew-of-bravermans-alleged-speeding-request wrote:Matthew Rycroft, the department’s permanent secretary, was told about the home secretary’s alleged request to set up a private driving awareness course in the autumn, informed sources said.

Braverman had made the request to another senior civil servant who “had concerns about whether it was appropriate”, it is understood, so had reported it to the top official.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/may/20/braverman-asked-civil-servants-for-help-after-being-caught-speeding wrote:Civil servants refused the request but were so concerned they reported the matter to the Cabinet Office.
If the press reports are untrue then Braverman would explicitly state they were wrong and she didn't do what is reported but she just get evasive and doesn't answer which to me increases the reliability of the reports.

Ian
DaveReading
Posts: 742
Joined: 24 Feb 2019, 5:37pm

Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by DaveReading »

Psamathe wrote: 27 May 2023, 10:44amAnd when Braverman asked about it she just gets evasive and fails tom answer the question - so one must assume that if she didn't she's just say "No I didn't" rather than just evade the question and fail to answer.
Exactly. It's enough to give disingenuousness a bad name. :?

When questioned in Parliament, she simply repeated ad nauseam "I got a speeding ticket, I paid the fine, I took the points" - none of which was being disputed. She failed totally to address the question about what she had asked the civil servant(s) to do before she decided to pay up.
pete75
Posts: 16356
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by pete75 »

Pebble wrote: 27 May 2023, 10:23am
Psamathe wrote: 27 May 2023, 10:09am
Pebble wrote: 27 May 2023, 1:02am
I really don't see what the problem is, she done a bit of speeding, something that probably 95% of drivers do on every single journey they make, she got a ticket which is remarkably unlucky, she then enquired if she could do the awareness course in private, what exactly was wrong in asking that question? She then paid the fine and took her three points. She sounds like a regular person to me....

(deleted by moderator)
The problem is it appears that she asked the Civil Servants to investigate the "private speeding course" and using Civil Servants for personal matters is against the Ministerial Code and breaking that code is a resignation/sacking offence.

That said seems it isn't the first time she's broken the Ministerial Code and she seems to regard herself as "above" such rules and reality is, weak leadership seems to mean she is.

Ian
I would like to see more context around this. Did she simply say to someone in the office "do you know if you can have a one on one course?" or did she demand a full written report into all the possibilities of what would be least damaging. If the later, then I would agree that would be wrong.

It appears the long knives are out for her, and everything she does or says is blown out of all proportion. She is being relentlessly bullied so care needs to be taken into what to believe.
Not bullied but held to account.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
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