Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

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Cugel
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Joined: 13 Nov 2017, 11:14am

Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Cugel »

Psamathe wrote: 8 Dec 2023, 10:08am
2. It distracts the electorate from issues the Conservatives have failed over and don't know what to do (NHS, Cost of Living, Climate Change, etc.)

Ian
Whilst its certainly the case that the present "government" (which isn't any such thing in the usual and fuller sense or the term) seems incompetent and "failed" from the perspective of 99% of Blighty citizens/subjects, I feel that its a mistake to think that the so-called Conservatives (they're the very opposite of conservationists) have failed their own intentions. The intentions of most members of that political party are to destroy much of the status quo in favour of a transference of all powers to an elite of their own creation centred on international big business, finance capitalism and agents of those various ultra right global entrepreneurs who feel that their technophile dreams should be and therefore will be "the future".

Consequently its a mistake to think that Toryspivs "..... don't know what to do[about] Cost of Living, Climate Change.etc.". They're doing what they've always wanted to do in these and other current matters that 99% of us regard as clear and present dangers. They want to use those things as implements in their shock & awe strategy of destroying much of what-is so as to provide a blank slate for what they intend to impose, which is what they regard as a benevolent dictatorship but which we 99%ers will come to feel (literally, with out bodies) is just a bog-standard dictatorship of the familiar kind peppering human history.

The problem for the Conservative Party is that they don't have the heft of similar parties elsewhere, such as the US Repuglicans, who many Toryspivs attempt to emulate. If they've failed at anything in pursuit of their true intents, its a failure to gain enough skill with the post-modern controls employed by more successful would-be totalitarian political parties. They're not very good at mass media manipulation, despite having our rabid gutter press generally on-side. Their anti-social media efforts are amateurish. But they're learning all the time, witnessed by their general slide into performative ruthless and amoral attitudes and behaviours of every kind.

Bokum purged the Conservative Party of most One-Nation members some time ago. There's only a tiny few of them left as MPs. The various factions within that Nasty Party are currently battling for supremacy, which tends to see them take their eye of the ball of keeping power. But don't underestimate their ability to survive and prosper. They've been doing if for a long, long time, in any way they can.

Polls currently suggest we'll get another political party as government before too long. But I wouldn't pin too many hopes that they'll be truly concerned with the 99% either, going by their current signs and signals. Moreover, its not beyond the bounds of possibility that the current gang of spivs will come up with a manufactured issue that manages to sway sufficient of the stupider portion of the 99% to vote for them en-masse .... again. It's usually a war (hot or cold, e.g Falklands, Iraq; Islam, Europe) manufactured against some bogeyman "enemy without"; or the creation of a new "enemy within" (an ever growing list, including even "driver-persecuting" cyclists).
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
Psamathe
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Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Psamathe »

Deputy Chair of Conservative Party on Newsnight last night still pursuing "We can't be pushed around by foreign courts" - fortunately the presenter pointed out that it was UK Courts that declared the policy against the law; though Deputy Chair never actually acknowledged that. Conservatives are still pushing so many untruths about this policy to the point where I have a suspicion that this is being used by many Conservative MPs as a route to break with a lot of Human Rights laws - the issue they feel they can use to break with Human Rights across the board.

Ian
francovendee
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by francovendee »

The repetition of stop the boats gets traction with many Tory supporters, I think younger Tories less so.
The succession of failed leaders and ministers who support the stand on immigration say's to me that it isn't bringing the Tory party together. Much like leaving EU.
We can see how that worked out with Boris the liar to lead the country.
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Jdsk »

francovendee wrote: 8 Dec 2023, 12:31pm The repetition of stop the boats gets traction with many Tory supporters, I think younger Tories less so.
The succession of failed leaders and ministers who support the stand on immigration say's to me that it isn't bringing the Tory party together. Much like leaving EU.
We can see how that worked out with Boris the liar to lead the country.
Yes. Many similarities.

Jonathan
reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by reohn2 »

Is this the way we're treating people now:- https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-lei ... e-67654360
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Jdsk
Posts: 24998
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Jdsk »

Government announcement:

"Over 50,000 extra nurses in NHS - hitting government target early"
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/over ... rget-early

Any suggestions for how many were recruited from overseas?

Jonathan
reohn2
Posts: 45186
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by reohn2 »

Jdsk wrote: 8 Dec 2023, 1:46pm Government announcement:

"Over 50,000 extra nurses in NHS - hitting government target early"
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/over ... rget-early

Any suggestions for how many were recruited from overseas?

Jonathan
More than few I should think.....
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Jdsk »

reohn2 wrote: 8 Dec 2023, 2:01pm
Jdsk wrote: 8 Dec 2023, 1:46pm Government announcement:

"Over 50,000 extra nurses in NHS - hitting government target early"
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/over ... rget-early

Any suggestions for how many were recruited from overseas?
More than few I should think.....
You could say that... ; - )

Jonathan
Jdsk
Posts: 24998
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Jdsk »

"The Home Office has been ordered to give parliament the “full and frank” costings of the scheme to deport migrants to Rwanda, after admitting projected initial spending had doubled to almost £300m.
"Matthew Rycroft, the permanent secretary of the Home Office, has been asked to attend the public accounts committee on Monday to explain, after the initial costs of the scheme rose from £140m to £290m.
"He was also accused of showing an “extreme lack of respect” towards the home affairs and public accounts committee over the way the Home Office disclosed the costs, days after refusing to be transparent."

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... says-no-10

Always good to see Parliament doing its job.

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Jdsk »

Jdsk wrote: 8 Dec 2023, 5:24pm "The Home Office has been ordered to give parliament the “full and frank” costings of the scheme to deport migrants to Rwanda, after admitting projected initial spending had doubled to almost £300m.
"Matthew Rycroft, the permanent secretary of the Home Office, has been asked to attend the public accounts committee on Monday to explain, after the initial costs of the scheme rose from £140m to £290m.
"He was also accused of showing an “extreme lack of respect” towards the home affairs and public accounts committee over the way the Home Office disclosed the costs, days after refusing to be transparent."

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... says-no-10

Always good to see Parliament doing its job.
And 'No 10 says govt will published summary of legal advice on Rwanda bill today “in recognition of significant public interest”.":
https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/ ... 6927879439

That's a good idea. But it should be the whole thing, not a "summary".

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Jdsk »

Jdsk wrote: 7 Dec 2023, 1:36pm
Jdsk wrote: 7 Dec 2023, 8:58am
Jdsk wrote: 6 Dec 2023, 10:23am Rozenberg's first thoughts on the new treaty with Rwanda:
https://rozenberg.substack.com/p/what-h ... ith-rwanda
And on the proposed domestic legislation:
https://rozenberg.substack.com/p/a-triu ... experience
And from Jonathan Jones:
https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... ill-treaty
And from the government: "Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Bill 2023: legal position ":
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... accessible

Jonathan
roubaixtuesday
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Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Unsurprisingly an opposition leader in Rwanda, previously imprisoned by the regime there, is unimpressed by the UK policy.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... man-rights
Jdsk
Posts: 24998
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Jdsk »

Jdsk wrote: 11 Dec 2023, 3:11pm
Jdsk wrote: 7 Dec 2023, 1:36pm
Jdsk wrote: 7 Dec 2023, 8:58am
And on the proposed domestic legislation:
https://rozenberg.substack.com/p/a-triu ... experience
And from Jonathan Jones:
https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... ill-treaty
And from the government: "Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Bill 2023: legal position ":
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... accessible
And from Peretz: "Legislating lies and drafting dishonesty: the Safety of Rwanda Bill":
https://georgeperetzkc.substack.com/p/l ... dishonesty

And one that I wasn't expecting. From the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Human Rights:
https://committees.parliament.uk/public ... 6/default/
... the Bill is inconsistent with ECHR.

Jonathan
Jdsk
Posts: 24998
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Jdsk »

Jdsk wrote: 12 Dec 2023, 11:23am
Jdsk wrote: 11 Dec 2023, 3:11pm
Jdsk wrote: 7 Dec 2023, 1:36pm And from Jonathan Jones:
https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... ill-treaty
And from the government: "Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Bill 2023: legal position ":
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... accessible
And from Peretz: "Legislating lies and drafting dishonesty: the Safety of Rwanda Bill":
https://georgeperetzkc.substack.com/p/l ... dishonesty

And one that I wasn't expecting. From the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Human Rights:
https://committees.parliament.uk/public ... 6/default/
... the Bill is inconsistent with ECHR.
And Elliott in today's Times:

Image

Jonathan
Psamathe
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Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Psamathe »

Personal Opinion (no facts involved):
I suspect the "problems" getting the bill passed will come in the later stages as it passes through the Lords, Committee stages and 3rd reading. 2nd reading is not likely to cause issues. Noises from right of party at the moment are just political manoeuvring.

Plus, vote it down at the 2nd reading and Sunak is toast (in the next few months) and who in the Conservatives would want to become leader now. Any Conservative MP with half a brain will realise that whatever happens, however good they are the Party has lost the next General Election (Rwanda is never going to rescue them from their failings over thew economy, NHS, etc.). So become leader now and they will be stepping down having failed in less than 12 months. They'll all appreciate that it's better to wait, spending time between now and next General Election sniping at Sunak's failing, saying how they'd do better, manoeuvring for their leadership bid, etc. Then when Sunak loses the next GE big time they can step in with a full 5 years starting from a low where "the only way is up".

Ian
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