Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

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Dingdong
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Dingdong »

[/quote]


When you result to insults you opinion is lost I'm afraid.
[/quote]

You must be a verbal contortionist if you can find the insult therein!? I'm not calling you a racist, (though you are sailing pretty close to the wind) but how can you conflate underfunding in the NHS with perceived 'high' migrant numbers?

It's well documented that Britain takes significantly less migrants and refugees than just about any other European country. It's also well documented that the NHS is absolutely struggling to find nurses and ancillary staff after the total debacle of Brexit. This is simply another ruse from the Tory party to drum up votes in a particularly dry season where Labour are streaking ahead in the polls and look set to win the next GE.

Migrant hysteria barely worked when it came to the Brexit vote (and my oh my how they tried), it will certainly not get the Tories out of the excrement they have dug themselves into these past 3 months. I predict this coming winter will break the back of the Conservative party, and it's the likes of the egregious Braverman who will do most of the heavy lifting when it comes to their own demise. Roll on an early GE in 2023.

I for one will clap my hands.
ossie
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by ossie »

Dingdong wrote: 4 Nov 2022, 10:06pm

When you result to insults you opinion is lost I'm afraid.
[/quote]

You must be a verbal contortionist if you can find the insult therein!? I'm not calling you a racist, (though you are sailing pretty close to the wind) but how can you conflate underfunding in the NHS with perceived 'high' migrant numbers?

It's well documented that Britain takes significantly less migrants and refugees than just about any other European country. It's also well documented that the NHS is absolutely struggling to find nurses and ancillary staff after the total debacle of Brexit. This is simply another ruse from the Tory party to drum up votes in a particularly dry season where Labour are streaking ahead in the polls and look set to win the next GE.

Migrant hysteria barely worked when it came to the Brexit vote (and my oh my how they tried), it will certainly not get the Tories out of the excrement they have dug themselves into these past 3 months. I predict this coming winter will break the back of the Conservative party, and it's the likes of the egregious Braverman who will do most of the heavy lifting when it comes to their own demise. Roll on an early GE in 2023.

I for one will clap my hands.
[/quote]

Sailing close to it....give it a break.You are desperately hanging onto a drama queen thread clearly born out of a great deal of paranoia.
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mjr
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by mjr »

ossie wrote: 4 Nov 2022, 7:13pm Reference Sweden's 10 percent born abroad I guessed you missed the results of the UK 2021 census.. England and Wales is now 1 in 6 born abroad and doesn't include those who chose to ignore the census or who are simply unaccountable. We are a wonderful diversified country but we are also extremely overcrowded, something has to give.
That's eye-catching but not the whole story. The British Empire was much larger than the Swedish Empire and over half of the 1 in 6 are Brits born abroad, some in empire, some soon after, and yes, some much later. But the most common country for E&W residents born abroad is still India. Cliff Richard amongst them.
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Dingdong
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Dingdong »

ossie wrote: 4 Nov 2022, 10:20pm
Dingdong wrote: 4 Nov 2022, 10:06pm

When you result to insults you opinion is lost I'm afraid.

[/quote]

Sailing close to it....give it a break.You are desperately hanging onto a drama queen thread clearly born out of a great deal of paranoia.
[/quote]

When you result to insults you opinion is lost I'm afraid....

Can't you see the manufactured hysteria and paranoia which the current administration is desperately trying to stir up? It's pathetic. The whole exercise is stage managed to provoke exactly this kind of response from a long time duped British public, aided and abetted by a (temporarily) acquiescent press.

The Tories are a busted flush, everyone can see it. Most of the Red Tops are gearing up to quickly shift allegiance to the Labour party, who are still 30 odd points ahead in the polls. Immigration is the last, desperate card the Tory party has to play. It's a re-run of the 'stranger danger' from the Brexit era. And an extremely dangerous one, encouraging all sorts of racists, deviants and outright neo-fascists to pop their head above the parapet, where before they knew they were wise to keep schtum about their abhorrent beliefs. Petrol bombing immigration centres is likely just the start of it.

If this thread serves any purpose, it helps out and illuminate those anti-immigrant, and racist beliefs, which for obvious reasons the guilty, to their shame, would rather keep under wraps.
Ben@Forest
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Ben@Forest »

Dingdong wrote: 4 Nov 2022, 3:50pm It's a poor show. We take significantly less immigrants than Germany, France or Sweden (where 10% of the population are now not Sweden born), the response of the UK and Jackbooted, Chinook toting Braverman is very concerning. When they finally roll back the EU laws, it'll be gunboats and barbed wire all the way along the south coast. It's not far from that scenario, to Swastikas at the 'reception centres' and free showers for all.
And the Swedish experience (where it's actually 20% of the population being foreign-born) is not working out well. It's a good part of the reason the right-wing Sweden Democrats, expanded its vote share to 20.5% (and the Social Democrats lost).

As linked below the former Prime Minister Magdalena Andersson conceded earlier in 2022 that Sweden has failed to integrate the huge number of immigrants it has taken in over the past two decades and that it has led to parallel societies and gang violence. The country now has the second highest rate of murders through gun crime in Europe, it used to be virtually at the bottom of the table.

And there's a disconnect between UK-based commentators here (l mean on this forum) telling us how wonderfully other European countries are doing in comparison with the UK. I know Germany well, speak the language and read the papers. Much of its population is as concerned about immigration as people in the UK are. Many people were not happy about Merkel's sudden acceptance of 1 million Syrian refugees in 2015 (and it broke EU law). I think perhaps everyone here should learn another European language, speak to locals and then comment...and don't use Google Translate - in German at least half the time you get gobbledegook! :wink:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ga ... 022-08-12/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politi ... ugees/amp/
pete75
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by pete75 »

Ben@Forest wrote: 5 Nov 2022, 7:44am
Dingdong wrote: 4 Nov 2022, 3:50pm It's a poor show. We take significantly less immigrants than Germany, France or Sweden (where 10% of the population are now not Sweden born), the response of the UK and Jackbooted, Chinook toting Braverman is very concerning. When they finally roll back the EU laws, it'll be gunboats and barbed wire all the way along the south coast. It's not far from that scenario, to Swastikas at the 'reception centres' and free showers for all.
And the Swedish experience (where it's actually 20% of the population being foreign-born) is not working out well. It's a good part of the reason the right-wing Sweden Democrats, expanded its vote share to 20.5% (and the Social Democrats lost).

As linked below the former Prime Minister Magdalena Andersson conceded earlier in 2022 that Sweden has failed to integrate the huge number of immigrants it has taken in over the past two decades and that it has led to parallel societies and gang violence. The country now has the second highest rate of murders through gun crime in Europe, it used to be virtually at the bottom of the table.

And there's a disconnect between UK-based commentators here (l mean on this forum) telling us how wonderfully other European countries are doing in comparison with the UK. I know Germany well, speak the language and read the papers. Much of its population is as concerned about immigration as people in the UK are. Many people were not happy about Merkel's sudden acceptance of 1 million Syrian refugees in 2015 (and it broke EU law). I think perhaps everyone here should learn another European language, speak to locals and then comment...and don't use Google Translate - in German at least half the time you get gobbledegook! :wink:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ga ... 022-08-12/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politi ... ugees/amp/
I think many of us are well aware than the right is gaining support in many European countries. Right wing parties are in power in Sweden, Italy, Hungary, Holland, Poland, Italy and the UK. You're correct that anti-immigrant views are to blame for this, along with the rise of nationalism.
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slowster
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by slowster »

I think the focus of many people on immigration is more an effect of an underlying cause, rather than immigration being an underlying cause itself.

I think studies have shown that people's living standards in many first world countries have fallen over the last 20+ years. That has been masked by factors such as the cost of many consumer goods falling as a result of their manufacture being transferred to China, and many people maintaining unaffordable lifestyles by using credit during a long period of low interest rates.

For those of us who are not economists and familiar with how economic forces on a global scale can have a huge effect on our lives, it is not easy to understand what has happened and is happening, because it involves seemingly remote intangibles. Many people are likely instead to conflate their struggle to afford housing and food and find or stay in secure employment, with other things that are more directly apparent to them than economic theories, such as immigration.

Far easier for many people to demonise an outgroup of foreigners, than the powerful and wealthy who maintain the system, especially if they believe that the powerful and wealthy individuals are serving their interests because a) they voted for them, and b) the powerful and wealthy individuals 'share' their concerns about immigration and are trying to stop it.

Politically, the issue of immigration is the modern bread and circuses, but with the bonus that unlike the giveaway of bread and circuses it costs nothing to instill and maintain a sense of grievance that keeps the wealthy and powerful in power and maintains their wealth. For some, such as Tory politicians like Braverman, the Daily Mail, Nigel Farage and Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, it is a means for them to make money and acquire power.
pwa
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by pwa »

If an election were held now, the Tories would lose. All they have got, right now, is the power they acquired a couple of years back, with the clock ticking down to their loss of power. They are not proto-Nazis marching on to create a Fourth Reich, they are a sad little group of idealogues scrambling around to try to look vaguely competent to a public who are convinced they are not. Yes, of course there is a lot of anger that unregulated migration isn't being stemmed, but that is not translating into a surge in support for the current Home Secretary. She looks like somebody with no sensible ideas. People are yearning for someone with competence to take sensible and balanced measures, and that is the desire that will play out when the democratic process resumes at the next General Election. Labour need to spell out what they want to do about this issue.
Nearholmer
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Nearholmer »

Talking to one of the other dads on the sideline at boys’ football this morning, he a lawyer by profession, as quietly-spoken, calm and measured a chap as you can imagine, and much to my amazement he described SB as a fascist, and went on to last all the things she’s done which he believes should result in her being disbarred.
Dingdong
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Dingdong »

Nearholmer wrote: 5 Nov 2022, 4:39pm Talking to one of the other dads on the sideline at boys’ football this morning, he a lawyer by profession, as quietly-spoken, calm and measured a chap as you can imagine, and much to my amazement he described SB as a fascist, and went on to last all the things she’s done which he believes should result in her being disbarred.
'Fascist' used to be a catch all phrase to describe people who were obsessive rule makers or presided over authoritarian regimes, it was probably used in a light way to insult people who were overly controlling. We shouldn't forget the end game of Fascism: violent suppression of the opposition, ultranationalism, creation of a one party totalitarian state, belief in social and racial hierarchy, encouragement of racism and finally mass extermination of those who sit at the bottom of the hierarchy or anyone whose 'Face just doesn't fit'.

The sad news is that its not only on the rise in Europe and abroad, but it's in power now in Italy, Sweden and Hungary. How long till France, Spain and Germany fall under the boot? My best friend from university lives in Lyon, in a small village and he tells me in their local elections, 96% of the village voted for Le Pen. She's another self styled neo-fascist who holds some very ugly views indeed on racial purity, race and forced repatriation of people who have been born and lived in France all their lives. 96% is a big number, although apparently her support dwindles when it reaches the cities.

As we've seen in the past three years, life and particularly Western life still has great potential to utterly fall apart, and absolutely no one can predict what will happen, even for tomorrow. COVID and a war in the East on European borders has probably created the Ideal conditions for a plunge into darkness. I'd say that the chances of a completely Fascist governed Europe in the next five years is about 50/50. No better.
francovendee
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by francovendee »

It may be called a rise of the fascists but any government in any country would be well advised to seek out why so many are anti immigration.
I'm aware that it's in the right wing that stokes up the fires but that there's a fire to be stoked should be of serious concern to all of us.
The world climate is changing and people fleeing from parts of the world where life is no longer liveable is here to stay.
As others have pointed out, the UK isn't the only country with problems over immigration. I believe the population feels that the new arrivals get an unfair slice of the cake having paid nothing into the system that is supporting them.
I was very surprised to find my French neighbours feel this way and they support the tactics used by the Police in Paris.
Nearholmer
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Nearholmer »

The world climate is changing and people fleeing from parts of the world where life is no longer liveable is here to stay.
True, but I really do wonder how much part that has played in what has happened so far.

If you look at the countries people leave, a very large part of the problem is either war that has nothing direct to do with climate change, collapse of economies for political reasons, complete collapse of civic society, or civic society falling into the hands of religious and/or political oppressives.

People don’t leave Albania due to climate change, they leave because the place has a dysfunctional economy, other countries people flee because of war, others because ayatollahs and the like make life intolerable.

So, yes, climate change does “up the ante”, but I honestly think the real problem is clashes of belief-systems (even Albania’s problems can be traced to that) …… people persecuting other people because their beliefs differ. Even Ukraine is caught in a clash of beliefs.

There is a strand in human nature that is all about imposing beliefs and codes of behaviour on other people, high-grade bullying in effect. It’s always been there, and right now it’s very much in the up. Have a listen to the religious right in the USA if you want a flavour, their mad ayatollahs speak English, so it makes it easier to understand what they are ranting on about.

But, I do believe that even if climate effect isn’t the immediate driver (yet?), that at some deep level the resurgence of brutal intolerance is linked to climate change, in that I think people are becoming scared and confused by a threatening future, and when people are scared and confused, a proportion get nasty (another proportion become depressed and inactive).

If the meek, which I believe is 90% of humanity when not in the thrall of bullies, want to inherit the earth, we need to coral the bullies of all kinds, physical, political, and financial.
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Cugel
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Cugel »

Fascism has become a catch-all term for all sorts of hard&fast political attitudes and thinking. Perhaps a reminder of it's origins and features in past times is useful? This article is a reasonable attempt at potting fascism into something easily spreadable on your understanding:

https://www.britannica.com/topic/fascis ... al-origins

The current Tories (as others have said) seem far too shambolic to be thought of as representing any such coherent political attitude or well-defined ideology. They used to be a party of pragmatism mixed with caution and a good dollop of the status quo. No longer. They're now infested with all sorts of radicals and revolutionaries albeit tending to have absolutist and intolerant features historically found in various totalitarian political ideologies of the recent past. The only status quo they're interested in is preservation of their own power and that of their enablers.

There's definitely an overall tendency to move towards various fascist features, particularly the intolerance for ideological opposition to their own particular predilections and prejudices. The current Tory party shows many anti-democratic features, from voter-suppression ambitions to the undermining of other powers such as those providing the rule of law or organised opposition such as unions and demonstrators.

There's a tendency to borrow some of the already constructed emblems of fascist movements of the past, such as the glorification of a constructed Great Past, the ideal subject ("people like us") and a demonisation of foreigners. They also show a tendency to cleave to and service powerful corporations that will form useful partnerships with them in exchange for privileges, such as big business and the gutter press.

**********
But could the current Tories be described as fascists? Personally I think they'd need to be a lot more organised, coherent/cohesive and free of their own past history as a political party. At present, they're just imploding because they're so ramshackle: full of past Tory traditions and habits as well as the various "accelerationists" who want to make a blank slate of Britain before construction of their various New Model Utopias.

Not to say that some far more organised fascist group won't come to power in Britain on the back of all the toxic conditions and mindsets the current Tories have created in broken Britain. But if so, it'll not be the Tories themselves but a New Party of the populist ilk run by a monster like Farage but with far more ability to organise politically than that gurning thickoid.

Cugel
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roubaixtuesday
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Cugel wrote: 6 Nov 2022, 11:41am Fascism has become a catch-all term for all sorts of hard&fast political attitudes and thinking. Perhaps a reminder of it's origins and features in past times is useful? This article is a reasonable attempt at potting fascism into something easily spreadable on your understanding:

https://www.britannica.com/topic/fascis ... al-origins

The current Tories (as others have said) seem far too shambolic to be thought of as representing any such coherent political attitude or well-defined ideology. They used to be a party of pragmatism mixed with caution and a good dollop of the status quo. No longer. They're now infested with all sorts of radicals and revolutionaries albeit tending to have absolutist and intolerant features historically found in various totalitarian political ideologies of the recent past. The only status quo they're interested in is preservation of their own power and that of their enablers.

There's definitely an overall tendency to move towards various fascist features, particularly the intolerance for ideological opposition to their own particular predilections and prejudices. The current Tory party shows many anti-democratic features, from voter-suppression ambitions to the undermining of other powers such as those providing the rule of law or organised opposition such as unions and demonstrators.

There's a tendency to borrow some of the already constructed emblems of fascist movements of the past, such as the glorification of a constructed Great Past, the ideal subject ("people like us") and a demonisation of foreigners. They also show a tendency to cleave to and service powerful corporations that will form useful partnerships with them in exchange for privileges, such as big business and the gutter press.

**********
But could the current Tories be described as fascists? Personally I think they'd need to be a lot more organised, coherent/cohesive and free of their own past history as a political party. At present, they're just imploding because they're so ramshackle: full of past Tory traditions and habits as well as the various "accelerationists" who want to make a blank slate of Britain before construction of their various New Model Utopias.

Not to say that some far more organised fascist group won't come to power in Britain on the back of all the toxic conditions and mindsets the current Tories have created in broken Britain. But if so, it'll not be the Tories themselves but a New Party of the populist ilk run by a monster like Farage but with far more ability to organise politically than that gurning thickoid.

Cugel
I think the overt use of force against opposition is an inherent part of fascism. The current regime (in as far as it's possible to discern one amidst the chaos) is perhaps better described as authoritarian nationalist.

We're a long way from fascism and I think it's a bit insulting to the victims of the genuine article to pretend otherwise.
pete75
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by pete75 »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 6 Nov 2022, 11:51am
I think the overt use of force against opposition is an inherent part of fascism. The current regime (in as far as it's possible to discern one amidst the chaos) is perhaps better described as authoritarian nationalist.

We're a long way from fascism and I think it's a bit insulting to the victims of the genuine article to pretend otherwise.
Changes to the law on public demonstrations may well lead to a lot more overt use of force against people demonstrating against government policy. New legislation will give the police powers to impose conditions like start and finish times on public demonstrations. This could effectively ban them. For example a senior officer could allow a demonstartion and say start at 15:00 and finish at 15:15, making it almost impossible to hold, or if it does go ahead snd the demonstrators are still there at 15:16 go in hard with shields and truncheons. Giving a right wing, authoritarian organisation like a UK police force such control over demonstrations is certainly a step closer to fascism.

As this article argues the line between authoritarian nationalist populism and fascism is getting increasingly blurred. https://www.fairobserver.com/politics/a ... ws-152611/
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
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