Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

[pete75]

Are you both showing your age, or do you just read a lot of books?

Well I'm 70 and remember the Vietnam war clearly.

I'm a little younger (don't often get to say that) so for me Vietnam is something the generation before me refer to as something they remember. I'd be reaching for Iraq if I wanted an example of a futile and costly conflict that happened when I was of an age to take it in.

It may also suprise you to know that Britian was involved in two large wars against Germany in the first half of the 20th Century.

[pwa]

Well I'm 70 and remember the Vietnam war clearly.

I'm a little younger (don't often get to say that) so for me Vietnam is something the generation before me refer to as something they remember. I'd be reaching for Iraq if I wanted an example of a futile and costly conflict that happened when I was of an age to take it in.

It may also suprise you to know that Britian was involved in two large wars against Germany in the first half of the 20th Century.

Ah, but that is knowledge we get from watching films and TV, and reading stuff, whereas you and R2 seemed to be remembering stuff that happened after you reached an age where the news made an impact on you. WW2, Korea, the Suez Crisis and Vietnam are, for me, historic events I know about but don't actually remember living through, either because I wasn't born or, in the last case, because I wasn't old enough to take it in. Iraq and the NI Troubles are events I experienced as daily news.

[Psamathe]

One aspect I find interesting/disappointing from the recent net migration figures is how our Universities have become so dependent on being self-financing from taking in lucrative foreign students and their fees. To the point where suggestions on reducing the numbers of foreign students have Universities highlighting how they'll go bust or rather have to cut back on many courses/activities.

To me this highlights how much their Government funding has been cut. Used to be our Universities were academic institutions where return on the investment paying for research was not a significant consideration. They could focus on our developing understanding without (short-term) commercial return.

I see the change as a great loss to our society.

Ian

[pwa]

One aspect I find interesting/disappointing from the recent net migration figures is how our Universities have become so dependent on being self-financing from taking in lucrative foreign students and their fees. To the point where suggestions on reducing the numbers of foreign students have Universities highlighting how they'll go bust or rather have to cut back on many courses/activities.

To me this highlights how much their Government funding has been cut. Used to be our Universities were academic institutions where return on the investment paying for research was not a significant consideration. They could focus on our developing understanding without (short-term) commercial return.

I see the change as a great loss to our society.

Ian

The Unis are now an industry in their own right, seeing their own financial wellbeing as an end in itself.

[roubaixtuesday]

One aspect I find interesting/disappointing from the recent net migration figures is how our Universities have become so dependent on being self-financing from taking in lucrative foreign students and their fees. To the point where suggestions on reducing the numbers of foreign students have Universities highlighting how they'll go bust or rather have to cut back on many courses/activities.

To me this highlights how much their Government funding has been cut. Used to be our Universities were academic institutions where return on the investment paying for research was not a significant consideration. They could focus on our developing understanding without (short-term) commercial return.

I see the change as a great loss to our society.

Ian

I understand where you're coming from, but you can also argue that the exposure of large numbers of influential foreign students to British institutions and culture is arguably the single best thing we can do to advance democracy worldwide.

[Psamathe]

One aspect I find interesting/disappointing from the recent net migration figures is how our Universities have become so dependent on being self-financing from taking in lucrative foreign students and their fees. To the point where suggestions on reducing the numbers of foreign students have Universities highlighting how they'll go bust or rather have to cut back on many courses/activities.

To me this highlights how much their Government funding has been cut. Used to be our Universities were academic institutions where return on the investment paying for research was not a significant consideration. They could focus on our developing understanding without (short-term) commercial return.

I see the change as a great loss to our society.

Ian

I understand where you're coming from, but you can also argue that the exposure of large numbers of influential foreign students to British institutions and culture is arguably the single best thing we can do to advance democracy worldwide.

I'm not trying to say the number of foreign students is an issue (I'm pretty relaxed about immigration, just concerned about population). My worry is the dependence Universities have on this income and how it highlights the way our Universities have changed from academic institutions to business establishments being forced to consider financial return rather than progressing human knowledge.

Ian

[toontra]

I understand where you're coming from, but you can also argue that the exposure of large numbers of influential foreign students to British institutions and culture is arguably the single best thing we can do to advance democracy worldwide.

Working well in the bastion of democracy that is China.

"According to student statistics released by UK Higher Education for 2021/22, the highest number of international students in the UK belonged to China, with 151,690 students enrolled."

https://www.studyin-uk.com/study-guide/ ... ersities/#

[roubaixtuesday]

I understand where you're coming from, but you can also argue that the exposure of large numbers of influential foreign students to British institutions and culture is arguably the single best thing we can do to advance democracy worldwide.

Working well in the bastion of democracy that is China.

"According to student statistics released by UK Higher Education for 2021/22, the highest number of international students in the UK belonged to China, with 151,690 students enrolled."

https://www.studyin-uk.com/study-guide/ ... ersities/#

I can't imagine a better way to influence future Chinese leaders. Can you?

[toontra]

I understand where you're coming from, but you can also argue that the exposure of large numbers of influential foreign students to British institutions and culture is arguably the single best thing we can do to advance democracy worldwide.

Working well in the bastion of democracy that is China.

"According to student statistics released by UK Higher Education for 2021/22, the highest number of international students in the UK belonged to China, with 151,690 students enrolled."

https://www.studyin-uk.com/study-guide/ ... ersities/#

I can't imagine a better way to influence future Chinese leaders. Can you?

I admire your optimism but not sure I share it, based on everything I read about current and projected Chinese political ambitions.

In any event, as mentioned above I'm not sure it's healthy for UK universities to be financially dependent on foreign students, particularly Chinese. Money comes with influence and the Chinese communist party know very well how to exercise that influence to further their aims. Think of research, etc. They are doing this worldwide and pervade every aspect of our lives in the west, and increasingly in the education sector.

[pete75]

One aspect I find interesting/disappointing from the recent net migration figures is how our Universities have become so dependent on being self-financing from taking in lucrative foreign students and their fees. To the point where suggestions on reducing the numbers of foreign students have Universities highlighting how they'll go bust or rather have to cut back on many courses/activities.

To me this highlights how much their Government funding has been cut. Used to be our Universities were academic institutions where return on the investment paying for research was not a significant consideration. They could focus on our developing understanding without (short-term) commercial return.

I see the change as a great loss to our society.

Ian

I understand where you're coming from, but you can also argue that the exposure of large numbers of influential foreign students to British institutions and culture is arguably the single best thing we can do to advance democracy worldwide.

Hmmm or put them off it. Can a nation where the head of state is chosen by accident of birth and one of the two legislative chambers is appointed by politicians be regarded as a democracy? There's also the small matter of the country's leader frequently being chosen only by members of the ruling party and/or it's MPs.

[reohn2]

Hmmm or put them off it. Can a nation where the head of state is chosen by accident of birth and one of the two legislative chambers is appointed by politicians be regarded as a democracy? There's also the small matter of the country's leader frequently being chosen only by members of the ruling party and/or it's MPs.

In a nutshell.

[Pebble]

Hmmm or put them off it. Can a nation where the head of state is chosen by accident of birth and one of the two legislative chambers is appointed by politicians be regarded as a democracy? There's also the small matter of the country's leader frequently being chosen only by members of the ruling party and/or it's MPs.

In a nutshell.

Could we have Suella as queen, she would make a very good queen, could just imagine her saying "off with their heads", she'd sort out a lot of the woke nonsense. Better than Charlie Boy, Yep Queen Suella, sounds good to me.

[roubaixtuesday]

You may think that the British constitution is imperfect. I might even agree with you, perhaps strongly.

But.

Democracy is much more than just constitutional arrangements. It's also the culture and integrity of wider society, including but not limited to freedom of the press, independence of the judiciary, and separation of executive and legislature.

Criticising the failings of these in Britain is not only legitimate, it's essential to the future of democracy here.

But pretending it's in any way comparable to China is beyond ridicule.

[toontra]

But pretending it's in any way comparable to China is beyond ridicule.

On that I think we can agree 100%.

[Psamathe]

One aspect I find interesting/disappointing from the recent net migration figures is how our Universities have become so dependent on being self-financing from taking in lucrative foreign students and their fees. To the point where suggestions on reducing the numbers of foreign students have Universities highlighting how they'll go bust or rather have to cut back on many courses/activities.

To me this highlights how much their Government funding has been cut. Used to be our Universities were academic institutions where return on the investment paying for research was not a significant consideration. They could focus on our developing understanding without (short-term) commercial return.

I see the change as a great loss to our society.

Ian

I understand where you're coming from, but you can also argue that the exposure of large numbers of influential foreign students to British institutions and culture is arguably the single best thing we can do to advance democracy worldwide.

Hmmm or put them off it. Can a nation where the head of state is chosen by accident of birth and one of the two legislative chambers is appointed by politicians be regarded as a democracy? There's also the small matter of the country's leader frequently being chosen only by members of the ruling party and/or it's MPs.

And ever increasing powers being centralised in Westminster.

And ever increasing powers being taken to the Executive (Ministers).

And Parliamentary scrutiny being avoided by illegally shutting down Parliament

And behind the scenes lobbying from wealthy/business for their private interests influencing legislation

etc.

Ian