Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

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Psamathe
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Psamathe »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 28 Nov 2023, 9:26am You may think that the British constitution is imperfect. I might even agree with you, perhaps strongly.

But.

Democracy is much more than just constitutional arrangements. It's also the culture and integrity of wider society, including but not limited to freedom of the press, independence of the judiciary, and separation of executive and legislature.

Criticising the failings of these in Britain is not only legitimate, it's essential to the future of democracy here.

But pretending it's in any way comparable to China is beyond ridicule.
Sometimes when people try to justify their own practices they can cherry pick actions of others. eg people criticise that the citizens of China don't get to pick their leader ... well in the UK that bastion of democracy, people don't get to vote for the King/Queen and Sunak became PM without any votes being cast - maybe selective but is having the country's leadership appointed without the citizens a shining example of democratic principles?

Ian
pete75
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by pete75 »

Pebble wrote: 28 Nov 2023, 9:12am
reohn2 wrote: 28 Nov 2023, 8:57am
pete75 wrote: 28 Nov 2023, 12:03am Hmmm or put them off it. Can a nation where the head of state is chosen by accident of birth and one of the two legislative chambers is appointed by politicians be regarded as a democracy? There's also the small matter of the country's leader frequently being chosen only by members of the ruling party and/or it's MPs.
In a nutshell.
Could we have Suella as queen, she would make a very good queen, could just imagine her saying "off with their heads", she'd sort out a lot of the woke nonsense. Better than Charlie Boy, Yep Queen Suella, sounds good to me.
There is a precednt for Suella being monarch. George III was also insane.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
roubaixtuesday
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Psamathe wrote: 28 Nov 2023, 10:44am
roubaixtuesday wrote: 28 Nov 2023, 9:26am You may think that the British constitution is imperfect. I might even agree with you, perhaps strongly.

But.

Democracy is much more than just constitutional arrangements. It's also the culture and integrity of wider society, including but not limited to freedom of the press, independence of the judiciary, and separation of executive and legislature.

Criticising the failings of these in Britain is not only legitimate, it's essential to the future of democracy here.

But pretending it's in any way comparable to China is beyond ridicule.
Sometimes when people try to justify their own practices they can cherry pick actions of others. eg people criticise that the citizens of China don't get to pick their leader ... well in the UK that bastion of democracy, people don't get to vote for the King/Queen and Sunak became PM without any votes being cast - maybe selective but is having the country's leadership appointed without the citizens a shining example of democratic principles?

Ian
Again, i agree with you, actually strongly, on the failings of the British constitution.

But do you really believe the UK is less democratic than China? Are you actually serious, or is this just a bit of fun playing Devil's advocate?
Psamathe
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Psamathe »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 28 Nov 2023, 11:46am
Psamathe wrote: 28 Nov 2023, 10:44am
roubaixtuesday wrote: 28 Nov 2023, 9:26am You may think that the British constitution is imperfect. I might even agree with you, perhaps strongly.

But.

Democracy is much more than just constitutional arrangements. It's also the culture and integrity of wider society, including but not limited to freedom of the press, independence of the judiciary, and separation of executive and legislature.

Criticising the failings of these in Britain is not only legitimate, it's essential to the future of democracy here.

But pretending it's in any way comparable to China is beyond ridicule.
Sometimes when people try to justify their own practices they can cherry pick actions of others. eg people criticise that the citizens of China don't get to pick their leader ... well in the UK that bastion of democracy, people don't get to vote for the King/Queen and Sunak became PM without any votes being cast - maybe selective but is having the country's leadership appointed without the citizens a shining example of democratic principles?

Ian
Again, i agree with you, actually strongly, on the failings of the British constitution.

But do you really believe the UK is less democratic than China? Are you actually serious, or is this just a bit of fun playing Devil's advocate?
No in that I agree that UK is not less democratic than China. But the issue is that oppressive leaders cherry pick when justifying their actions and eg illegally shutting down Parliament to avoid scrutiny with no repercussions can be used by oppressive leaders elsewhere "the UK, that bastion of democracy does it so it must be 'right'". Or leadership taking power without any votes ... if UK does it why can't we in China?

Where I'm coming from is that holding up the UK as leadership by example does not work when trying to encourage other countries to follow our example (or does work in that they happily follow eg closing down legislature to avoid scrutiny, etc.).

Ian
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Cugel
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Cugel »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 28 Nov 2023, 11:46am
Again, i agree with you, actually strongly, on the failings of the British constitution.

But do you really believe the UK is less democratic than China? Are you actually serious, or is this just a bit of fun playing Devil's advocate?
You'll be familiar with Stockholm syndrome, where the captives come to see the perspectives of their captives then develop that empathy into a full-blown sympathy.

If we can do Foucault and somehow put aside the sympathetic love we have for the political system of which we are captives (which might be described as the love for the familiar and our relatively comfortable place in it) to see ourselves as others see us, we might consider that many British citizens are more like subjects of a (perhaps relatively benign) dictatorship, in that we have no real opportunity to escape our circumstances and the political system/policies that impose them should "comfort" melt away into a potentially lethal discomfort, as is the case for an ever-greater number of Blighters.

I would like to vote for a large range of polices and associated institutions that are nowhere on offer across the British political parties. The range of policies "allowed" are dictated by large forces such as big business, finance capitalism, large international institutions of various kinds, the monarchy and a socio-economic environment highly favourable to a small class of semi-aristocrats ensconced in what's generally known as The Establishment.

Happily I personally have the benefit of Attlee-established comforts (not available now to millions of Blighters) so my lack of an attractive political choice is a small matter to me .... today. Perhaps it was a small matter for many, many millions of others until the events, policies and perpetrators of our current national situation blighted their lives? It's no exaggeration to say that highly non-democratic responses of Blighters to their growing discomforts might come to discomfort the lot of us, if things go on as they are.

*****************
I imagine (but don't know in any degree whatsoever) that millions of Chinese subjects are quite content with their political system and their place in it. But it's easier for many not-Chinese to assume that somehow they must all be terribly awfully discontent because they don't live in Blighty or the USA "with our wonderful democratic freedoms". That's what Bush & Bliar thought about Iraqis, if your recall.

Who knows? Many Blighters might find themselves far more content as subjects of the Chinese dictatorship? After all, many seem to crave a Vast Authority to tell them what to think and do.
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
roubaixtuesday
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Psamathe wrote: 28 Nov 2023, 12:04pm
roubaixtuesday wrote: 28 Nov 2023, 11:46am
Psamathe wrote: 28 Nov 2023, 10:44am
Sometimes when people try to justify their own practices they can cherry pick actions of others. eg people criticise that the citizens of China don't get to pick their leader ... well in the UK that bastion of democracy, people don't get to vote for the King/Queen and Sunak became PM without any votes being cast - maybe selective but is having the country's leadership appointed without the citizens a shining example of democratic principles?

Ian
Again, i agree with you, actually strongly, on the failings of the British constitution.

But do you really believe the UK is less democratic than China? Are you actually serious, or is this just a bit of fun playing Devil's advocate?
No in that I agree that UK is not less democratic than China. But the issue is that oppressive leaders cherry pick when justifying their actions and eg illegally shutting down Parliament to avoid scrutiny with no repercussions can be used by oppressive leaders elsewhere "the UK, that bastion of democracy does it so it must be 'right'". Or leadership taking power without any votes ... if UK does it why can't we in China?

Where I'm coming from is that holding up the UK as leadership by example does not work when trying to encourage other countries to follow our example (or does work in that they happily follow eg closing down legislature to avoid scrutiny, etc.).

Ian
I'm not suggesting we should hold up the UK as leadership by example.

I'm suggesting that hundreds of thousands of Chinese students directly experiencing a more democratic environment (free speech on campus, for example) is a much better way to influence China than holding up the UK as an example. So it's a very positive thing to happen.
Pebble
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Pebble »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 28 Nov 2023, 12:46pm I'm not suggesting we should hold up the UK as leadership by example.

I'm suggesting that hundreds of thousands of Chinese students directly experiencing a more democratic environment (free speech on campus, for example) is a much better way to influence China than holding up the UK as an example. So it's a very positive thing to happen.
I thought our universities had a major problem with Cancel Culture. They seem to be brain washing themselves with wokeish nonsense.
roubaixtuesday
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Pebble wrote: 28 Nov 2023, 5:42pm
roubaixtuesday wrote: 28 Nov 2023, 12:46pm I'm not suggesting we should hold up the UK as leadership by example.

I'm suggesting that hundreds of thousands of Chinese students directly experiencing a more democratic environment (free speech on campus, for example) is a much better way to influence China than holding up the UK as an example. So it's a very positive thing to happen.
I thought our universities had a major problem with Cancel Culture. They seem to be brain washing themselves with wokeish nonsense.
In the unlikely eventually that this was meant to be taken at face value, it would show you're in no position to criticise anyone else for being brainwashed!
reohn2
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by reohn2 »

Pebble wrote: 28 Nov 2023, 9:12am Could we have Suella as queen, she would make a very good queen, could just imagine her saying "off with their heads", she'd sort out a lot of the woke nonsense. Better than Charlie Boy, Yep Queen Suella, sounds good to me.
Our very own Boudica,face painted blue riding a chariot(probably a gasguzzling Range Rover)leading an army of icecreamies(cold(hearted)and offwhite)barging their way against the hordes of immigrants(not just Italian)invading across the Engerlish channel,repelled by empty threats of expulsion to Rwanda.
Just the Queen the country needs right now.....

PS,you'll forgive my tardy reply but I've only just Woke up :|
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W H Auden
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Cugel
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Cugel »

reohn2 wrote: 28 Nov 2023, 7:03pm
Pebble wrote: 28 Nov 2023, 9:12am Could we have Suella as queen, she would make a very good queen, could just imagine her saying "off with their heads", she'd sort out a lot of the woke nonsense. Better than Charlie Boy, Yep Queen Suella, sounds good to me.
Our very own Boudica,face painted blue riding a chariot(probably a gasguzzling Range Rover)leading an army of icecreamies(cold(hearted)and offwhite)barging their way against the hordes of immigrants(not just Italian)invading across the Engerlish channel,repelled by empty threats of expulsion to Rwanda.
Just the Queen the country needs right now.....

PS,you'll forgive my tardy reply but I've only just Woke up :|
I have heard that Cruella wears coats made from dalmatian puppies. She may also dine with that infamous baby-eating bishop. In all events, it will surely improve the place if she is deported to Rwanda, where she will make a good camp guard (although they'd best not let her near the machine gun towers).

Perhaps she can take that Glee Undersin with her for a holiday? He looks so unhappy having to be in Blighty with all those people he doesn't like (i.e. everyone). They'd make a loverly couple. Of what, we need not elaborate.
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
pete75
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by pete75 »

reohn2 wrote: 28 Nov 2023, 7:03pm
Pebble wrote: 28 Nov 2023, 9:12am Could we have Suella as queen, she would make a very good queen, could just imagine her saying "off with their heads", she'd sort out a lot of the woke nonsense. Better than Charlie Boy, Yep Queen Suella, sounds good to me.
Our very own Boudica,face painted blue riding a chariot(probably a gasguzzling Range Rover)leading an army of icecreamies(cold(hearted)and offwhite)barging their way against the hordes of immigrants(not just Italian)invading across the Engerlish channel,repelled by empty threats of expulsion to Rwanda.
Just the Queen the country needs right now.....

PS,you'll forgive my tardy reply but I've only just Woke up :|
Wasn't the originals army of over 100,000 destroyed by Suetonius with just 10,000 legionnaires?
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
reohn2
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by reohn2 »

pete75 wrote: 1 Dec 2023, 10:56am Wasn't the originals army of over 100,000 destroyed by Suetonius with just 10,000 legionnaires?
You've got me on that one Pete ,but I take your point :wink:
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Jdsk
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Jdsk »

Rozenberg's first thoughts on the new treaty with Rwanda:
https://rozenberg.substack.com/p/what-h ... ith-rwanda

Jonathan
reohn2
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by reohn2 »

Home Office ignored it's own advisers to lower the salary for family visas:- https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/home-o ... xvFF92C97n
Instead they did the opposite,at a time when industry is crying out for people to fill the many million vacancies,the not so Cleverly makes matters worse :?
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Jdsk
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Re: Braverman: Rise of the Fascists

Post by Jdsk »

Jdsk wrote: 15 Nov 2023, 10:21am
Jdsk wrote: 10 Nov 2023, 11:46am There's a moderately convincing theory about the timing of resignation. She'd rather go (this time) on a matter of principle rather than one of process. The decision of the Supreme Court on the Rwanda policy will be published on Wednesday. if the decision is that it is unlawful it will be easy to connect that to the European Convention on Human Rights. That would be just about ideal for her campaign.
Unlawful. On what sound like very wide grounds.

Now two different issues:

• How Braverman use this politically.

• Whether Cleverly/ Cameron/ Sunak want to take this any further. I'd guess that they don't want to either continue the performative aspects or fool around with international treaties.
Withdrawal from the ECHR is not in the proposed UK legislation:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... nda-scheme

Jonathan
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