Accident Help Please

[Ridgsta]

I had an high speed altercation with an Uber Sept21 (and I hadn't ordered one ), which was totally the drivers fault, All liability has been accepted by their insurers. I am still not physically back to the fitness levels pre-accident, but that is not the issue I'm looking at resolving. The defendents insurers are trying to heavily discount the cost of my carbon road bike, It's a Specialized Tarmac SL4 purchased in 2018 which Specialized replaced with a brand new 2019 frame in May19 due to a fault, I also have a carbon wheelset which was purchased just 3 months before the accident. Both bike and wheelset were pristine.

My argument is that without a costly scan/xray on the carbon frame we cannot be sure of the bike and wheels safety and either they undertake this, or fully compensate me for the bike.

My solicitor has been unable to locate any supporting case law in support of our claim for new for old.

Does anyone on the forums have any advice or point me to some case law that may be of help?

[MikeF]

Can't really give much helpful advice re the claim, but essentially it's a "write-off". With cars, insurance has a value on the car, ie what it's worth, which I don't think is necessarily the replacement cost, except possible with very new vehicles.

[PT1029]

Can't you get Specialized or their distributor to say the bike is a write off?
There might be some useful wording in the warranty that comes with the bike?

Why are the insurers trying to discount the pay out. Is it that visually only the wheels are damaged (or only the frame)? Or is it that there in no visible damage?, so you are (wisely) taking the cautious approach of replacing in case there is hidden damage.
If they are saying you keep all the parts from the (not very) old bike, offer it to them to deal with.

Some fancy cars that appear on Top Gear from time to time have a carbon fibre chassis, what happens if you get a modest rear end shunt at the traffic lights I wonder......

[slowster]

My argument is that without a costly scan/xray on the carbon frame we cannot be sure of the bike and wheels safety and either they undertake this, or fully compensate me for the bike.

My solicitor has been unable to locate any supporting case law in support of our claim for new for old.

Does anyone on the forums have any advice or point me to some case law that may be of help?

There is no such case law that would support a claim for 'new for old'. Claims for damages as a result of negligence are just that, for the 'damage' that you have suffered. If the damage is to property, then the financial amount is in general the commercial market value of that property based on its age and condition, not the cost of a brand new replacement unless the bike was no more than probably 12 months old.

I would expect the insurers to accept that the bike was a write off and take possession of it in return for whatever settlement you accept for it (most insurers will be aware of the danger of continuing to use a crash damaged carbon fibre bike, and that any carbon fibre bike needs to be considered unsafe to ride [and a write off] unless and until a comptent person assesses it as safe). If they want proof up front of damage, I would expect them to pay for the cost of an inspection (there are a few carbon bike bike repairers in the UK, and at least some use ultrasound etc. to assess frame condition and would provide such a report). The cost of the report should be borne by the insurers (or simply included by your solicitor in the claim they make for you, because the uncertainty about the safety and condition of the bike is a consequence of the driver's negligence, and that uncertainty has a financial value, i.e. the cost of the inspection, in other words that is itself another item of 'damage').

To the extent that the offer for the bike might not be enough for a new bike or for the replacement you want, providing it is not a completely unreasonably low offer, I would suggest that you focus on ensuring that you are getting everything else which the solicitor advises you are entitled to claim for, e.g. for the injury, damage to clothes, loss of enjoyment/use of the bike etc.

[thirdcrank]

I had an high speed altercation with an Uber Sept21 (and I hadn't ordered one ), which was totally the drivers fault, All liability has been accepted by their insurers. I am still not physically back to the fitness levels pre-accident, but that is not the issue I'm looking at resolving. The defendents insurers are trying to heavily discount the cost of my carbon road bike, It's a Specialized Tarmac SL4 purchased in 2018 which Specialized replaced with a brand new 2019 frame in May19 due to a fault, I also have a carbon wheelset which was purchased just 3 months before the accident. Both bike and wheelset were pristine.

My argument is that without a costly scan/xray on the carbon frame we cannot be sure of the bike and wheels safety and either they undertake this, or fully compensate me for the bike.

My solicitor has been unable to locate any supporting case law in support of our claim for new for old.

Does anyone on the forums have any advice or point me to some case law that may be of help?

Don't keep a dog and bark yourself.

[Steve X]

What a tricky conundrum.
The insurers will not buy you a new bike.
You do not now trust your Bike.
Finding a bike exactly the same for sale, to establish a price, would be very difficult.
Would you even trust a secondhand carbon frame bike?
Sounds like the only circumstance in which you do not lose out, would be if the insurers bought you a brand new bike.


If I was a Judge, I would think on balance, that the most reasonable outcome would be to provide you a new bike.

If you took them to small claims court, would this negate any previous offers from the insurers.?
This is the question I would be asking the Solicitor.

[Jdsk]

...
If you took them to small claims court, would this negate any previous offers from the insurers.?
...

An unaccepted offer wouldn't prevent a claim. Of course any reasoning in the offer would be likely to reappear in their evidence.

Jonathan

PS: There isn't a "small claims court" in England. It's the small claims process of a county court. I never how relevant this distinction is, but it might reduce confusion in following the guidance and the process.

[awavey]

Can't you get Specialized or their distributor to say the bike is a write off?
There might be some useful wording in the warranty that comes with the bike?

Why are the insurers trying to discount the pay out. Is it that visually only the wheels are damaged (or only the frame)? Or is it that there in no visible damage?, so you are (wisely) taking the cautious approach of replacing in case there is hidden damage.
If they are saying you keep all the parts from the (not very) old bike, offer it to them to deal with.

Some fancy cars that appear on Top Gear from time to time have a carbon fibre chassis, what happens if you get a modest rear end shunt at the traffic lights I wonder......

it gets very expensive for them to fix, I think the value of the car and its uniqueness is probably only what keeps most of them from being technically write offs.

but why does the insurer try to discount the pay out ? thats how they make their money, or more precisely keep your money for themselves, theyll always try to minimise a pay out even in cases where theyve accepted their client had full liability.

I dont think they are obliged to replace new for old, thats kind of a marketing thing theyve been using to make you think if something breaks you just get a new thing, I think theyre only obliged to ensure you are left in the same position as you were before the crash, so that theres no loss.

with a carbon bike/wheels, it is effectively a write off, Id have thought a bike shop assessing for damage could determine that pretty easily, its upto the insurers I beleive then if they want to demand the ultrasonic/xray to prove it isnt. But they should just accept the write off, theyll take the frame/wheels, and give you a cash alternative to buy an equivalent bike/wheel combo, which isnt a great position as obviously you cant just go to Specialized and buy the same bike anymore.

[Steve X]

...
If you took them to small claims court, would this negate any previous offers from the insurers.?
...

An unaccepted offer wouldn't prevent a claim. Of course any reasoning in the offer would be likely to reappear in their evidence.

Jonathan

PS: There isn't a "small claims court" in England. It's the small claims process of a county court. I never how relevant this distinction is, but it might reduce confusion in following the guidance and the process.

Perhaps I was not clear. If you reject the insurers offer of say £100, then failed in court or only got £80, could you then go back and accept the £100.

[in4time]

Having used the small claims procedure myself I’d suggest issuing notice that unless settlement is reached within X days you intend to initiate proceedings against them. There’s plenty of info on this process online. Anecdotal evidence suggests that people pay up in preference to letting matters proceed. Good luck.

[rareposter]

My solicitor has been unable to locate any supporting case law in support of our claim for new for old.

Try one of the cycling specific solicitors - if you're a member of Cycling UK or British Cycling, they have legal teams expert in this kind of thing. The back pages of Cycling Weekly (or a quick internet search) will usually turn up a few more options as well.

It sounds like the Uber insurance has accepted their driver is 100% to blame so it just seems to be the finances at stake now, is that correct?

It might not be "new for old" (technically) but you need to be put back into the same position you were before the incident. So if you bought (eg) the third tier model from a manufacturer, you would expect that same third tier level now (given that what you bought is no longer available. It's the "nearest equivalent").

Buy a carbon bike with Ultegra, you want a carbon bike with Ultegra as a replacement, not an alloy bike with Tiagra!
It's not your fault that it's now twice the price from 2018/19! There are certain caveats around that obviously but look at the actual bike and the kit on it, not the supposed value of it now.

Same with a warranty - if you break a carbon bike with Ultegra, the manufacturer would be expected to give you the same thing now or the nearest equivalent of what they now make.

And make sure it's your solicitor dealing with all this, that's what they're there for. It shouldn't be down to the victim (you) to be arguing the case.

[Jdsk]

...
If you took them to small claims court, would this negate any previous offers from the insurers.?
...

An unaccepted offer wouldn't prevent a claim. Of course any reasoning in the offer would be likely to reappear in their evidence.

PS: There isn't a "small claims court" in England. It's the small claims process of a county court. I never how relevant this distinction is, but it might reduce confusion in following the guidance and the process.

Perhaps I was not clear. If you reject the insurers offer of say £100, then failed in court or only got £80, could you then go back and accept the £100.

Ah, got it. Thanks.

There's no overriding principle or power. It depends on the terms of the offer.

I'd expect the defendant to end the offer before the court heard the case.

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

Usual principles:
* Don't delay.
* Document everything as you go. Every 'phone call, text message etc.
* Don't get personal or abusive, so sleep on correspondence before sending it or get someone else to check it.
* Try to put everything that you're claiming into the process as early as possible.

But was that a one-off discussion with the solicitor or are they acting for you until it's settled?

Jonathan

[Cowsham]

I'd get an estimate for the ultrasound / xray scan or whatever's needed, replacement parts for the bike ie frame, wheels and whatever else it needs or may need plus a mechanics time to put it back together and set it up.

I'd say they'll rather buy you a new bike.

[Postboxer]

And possibly new wheels too, if they were an upgrade.