Cycling training camps/holidays in Sweden?

[Jon in Sweden]

Given that the majority of people on this forum use cycling as a substitute for many or most car journeys, I think we can be cut a little more slack on the flying front.

We're encouraged to think that way, what with all the talk of 'offsetting' and 'net carbon', (not to mention the fact it's about 100 times easier to jump on a plane with our bikes than spend two days on ferries and trains with multiple tickets and changes). Nevertheless, doing less of 'bad' thing A (driving) doesn't give us the right (or an excuse) to engage in 'bad' thing B (flying once a year), particularly when a 'less bad' thing is available (train, ferry).

We might have got away with that if we'd started changing our economy 40 years ago when the writing on the wall was first visible to all. But we didn't, and short-haul flights (ie within Europe) are objectively one of the low hanging fruits when it comes to quickly reducing our emissions.

I understand, and I agree with you to a greater extent.

I'm just trying to offer something that I do not feel is available anywhere in the UK - largely traffic tree cycling in beautiful surrounds on exquisitely surfaced roads. A quick trip back to the UK a couple of weeks ago reaffirmed my opinion that cycling in the UK is much harder, much more dangerous and much less pleasurable than it ought to be.

It's not to say that I haven't done some fantastic cycling in the UK (a 60km Exmoor jaunt very early one summer's morning this year stands out) but even in Devon, it was mostly suboptimal.

[Galactic]

Hi Jon, please don't think we're piling on you (I get that it could feel that way). You seem to have sparked a discussion that we (as a society, as residents on this earth, as members of this forum ...) need to have, and that's a good thing.

As for your offer - I for one appreciate it, and I doubt anyone thinks otherwise. You're dead right - cycling in Sweden is so much more enjoyable than in most of the UK, it's a beautiful country and worth exploring. I've already said I plan to come to Sweden again, and I've taken pains to point out how that can be done in a potentially enjoyable and interesting way by using ferries and trains, a route that is do-able for most of us.

So thanks for offering to support people to come to your corner of the world, and thanks for prompting a discussion on our responsibilities to our world, even if it is tangential to your initial posting.

[Jon in Sweden]

Hi Jon, please don't think we're piling on you (I get that it could feel that way). You seem to have sparked a discussion that we (as a society, as residents on this earth, as members of this forum ...) need to have, and that's a good thing.

As for your offer - I for one appreciate it, and I doubt anyone thinks otherwise. You're dead right - cycling in Sweden is so much more enjoyable than in most of the UK, it's a beautiful country and worth exploring. I've already said I plan to come to Sweden again, and I've taken pains to point out how that can be done in a potentially enjoyable and interesting way by using ferries and trains, a route that is do-able for most of us.

So thanks for offering to support people to come to your corner of the world, and thanks for prompting a discussion on our responsibilities to our world, even if it is tangential to your initial posting.

Thanks for your kind words of encouragement.

I wasn't taking it personally. I was just trying to tie in offering cycling focused, affordable holiday options alongside the existing interest we have from people who like to open water swim.

Where we are in Sweden isn't the most stunning part of the country, but it is really very pretty. For any type of cycling, you can find great options. Well, perhaps not long alpine climbs (which I personally love), but everything else.

The total lack of traffic is really what makes it. I did a little under 3hrs on Sunday (90km) with a friend, and apart from a 10km section on one of the main roads here, we probably only saw 15 vehicles. Even on the main road, it was probably only another 10 cars. We were on perfect tarmac on decent sized roads throughout.

Because there is so little traffic (both cars and cycles), all that aggression that is so prevalent in the UK is just totally absent. It makes the whole experience of cycling here genuinely relaxing, rather than a fight to stay alive (as it can sometimes feel in the UK).

[Cugel]

Given that the majority of people on this forum use cycling as a substitute for many or most car journeys, I think we can be cut a little more slack on the flying front.

We're encouraged to think that way, what with all the talk of 'offsetting' and 'net carbon', (not to mention the fact it's about 100 times easier to jump on a plane with our bikes than spend two days on ferries and trains with multiple tickets and changes). Nevertheless, doing less of 'bad' thing A (driving) doesn't give us the right (or an excuse) to engage in 'bad' thing B (flying once a year), particularly when a 'less bad' thing is available (train, ferry).

We might have got away with that if we'd started changing our economy 40 years ago when the writing on the wall was first visible to all. But we didn't, and short-haul flights (ie within Europe) are objectively one of the low hanging fruits when it comes to quickly reducing our emissions.

I understand, and I agree with you to a greater extent.

I'm just trying to offer something that I do not feel is available anywhere in the UK - largely traffic tree cycling in beautiful surrounds on exquisitely surfaced roads. A quick trip back to the UK a couple of weeks ago reaffirmed my opinion that cycling in the UK is much harder, much more dangerous and much less pleasurable than it ought to be.

It's not to say that I haven't done some fantastic cycling in the UK (a 60km Exmoor jaunt very early one summer's morning this year stands out) but even in Devon, it was mostly suboptimal.

In truth I'd like to ride a bike about Sweden and several other fine places - if there was a means of getting there that didn't burn large amounts of oil. Perhaps one day there'll be trains and ferries of the well-connected and efficient kind all running on electricity from renewable and non-polluting sources? We can wish.

However, we're now at a point where the neglect of anything much to address the global warming and serious pollution that's been going on ever since coal and oil became a thing means that we have no time left to change our damaging behaviours. Going on as we are now will likely kill billions of human and 100X that of other life forms within the next century. We have NO leeway left for gradual changes to better ways, really.

Sad but true - and it does tend to kibosh the sort of bicycle touring that involves a long journey in some other form of motorised transport in order to get to where one wants to tour.

Of course, true tourists set out from their front door in, say, Kirkby Stephen to cycle all the way to Vietnam and back, with only the odd journey in a sailing boat to cross the very wet parts.

Cugel, content to tour West Wales (aka "home") just now.

PS Believe it or not, but West Wales has hundreds of well-maintained roads with very little traffic and, with the traffic one does come across, generally very considerate drivers. It's different elsewhere, I know.

[Galactic]

Kalmar County may not be the most stunning part of Sweden (never mind of Scandinavia), but is well worth a tour and I think your offer could be really useful to anyone who hasn't been to Sweden before, is unsure of where to go and what to expect.

Having someone knowledgeable nearby, perhaps with bikes to hire (as you said you were thinking of) and offering to help arrange accommodation: priceless.

[Cyclewala]

I saw Jon’s Facebook pages and it looks very appealing.

However, I can’t get my head round planes bad vs ferries/trains good. Ferries and most trains are diesel powered which is derived from oil. Even those trains that run on electric, that electricity often comes from burning gas.

[Philip Benstead]

I saw Jon’s Facebook pages and it looks very appealing.

However, I can’t get my head round planes bad vs ferries/trains good. Ferries and most trains are diesel powered which is derived from oil. Even those trains that run on electric, that electricity often comes from burning gas.

What do boats run ? BTW how are cycles manufactured, souce of energy and
material extraction?

[Jdsk]

...
However, I can’t get my head round planes bad vs ferries/trains good. Ferries and most trains are diesel powered which is derived from oil. Even those trains that run on electric, that electricity often comes from burning gas.

What do boats run ?
...

Commercial ferries use a range of fuel oils whose combustion is traditionally more polluting than the Diesel fuel used by road vehicles. Some switch to Diesel fuel when near land. Of course there are factors other than the properties of the fuel.

There are several hybrid ferries and a few that are battery-powered:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_ferry
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-denm ... SKCN1QV1W7

And the advantages and disadvantages of hydrogen as a fuel are very different between commercial shipping and car-like personal transport.

Jonathan

[mattheus]

BTW how are cycles manufactured, souce of energy and
material extraction?

Phil, you've been a cyclist quite a long time, and seem a pretty knowledgeable guy. I'd expect you to have a pretty good idea on the answers to these questions.
Have I overestimated you?

[Philip Benstead]

...
However, I can’t get my head round planes bad vs ferries/trains good. Ferries and most trains are diesel powered which is derived from oil. Even those trains that run on electric, that electricity often comes from burning gas.

What do boats run ?
...

Commercial ferries use a range of fuel oils whose combustion is traditionally more polluting than the Diesel fuel used by road vehicles. Some switch to Diesel fuel when near land. Of course there are factors other than the properties of the fuel.

There are several hybrid ferries and a few that are battery-powered:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_ferry
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-denm ... SKCN1QV1W7

And the advantages and disadvantages of hydrogen as a fuel are very different between commercial shipping and car-like personal transport.

Jonathan

Should we ban cycling its resouce and energy hungry and generate massive pollution?

[mattheus]

You see some intresting things on t'internet:

Should we ban cycling its resouce and energy hungry and generate massive pollution?

Philip Benstead | Life Member Former CTC Councillor/Trustee
Organizing events and representing cyclist in southeast since 1988

[Galactic]

However, I can’t get my head round planes bad vs ferries/trains good. Ferries and most trains are diesel powered which is derived from oil. Even those trains that run on electric, that electricity often comes from burning gas.

Sure, compared to land travel, ferries are pretty bad in terms of emissions (not as bad as cruises, but modern ferries usually have lots of space per passenger, which ups the emissions per passenger-mile).

Trains are pretty efficient, much more so than cars. Newer electrics are way more efficient than old diesels, and electrification on the continent is way more advanced than in the UK.

A big problem with planes is that the carbon relevant emissions happen higher up in the atmosphere, where (according to the IPCC) they can have three times the impact as emissions at sea/ground level.

So in our case, London to Kalmar one-way, we get the following CO2 equivalent emissions per person:

• 64kg CO2e for train (using Eurostar rather than ferry)
• 142kg by car (with 2 people travelling, ie 284kg for the whole car)
• 350kg by plane (the factor for emissions higher in the atmosphere is counted as 1.48 on this site)

figures from http://www.ecopassenger.org/bin/query.e ... 0&OK#focus Sadly, this site doesn't allow for calculations using ferries, but DEFRA calculates emissions at 22.54 grams of CO2 per passenger km for ferry foot passengers.

Seeing as we need to be getting our annual CO2e usage to below 2 tonnes per person per year (from memory, the IPCC may have come up with new figures), a return flight to Kalmar would take up a third of our annual budget - and that's before the NHS, the military and the government take their cut.

So if we decide we really need to go somewhere exotic (eg Sweden) for our annual hols, and don't want to set out from our doorsteps then trains are clearly the best way to get there.

PS according to cycle.travel it's about 1600km from London to Kalmar, so not impossible to cycle door to door.

[Philip Benstead]

You see some intresting things on t'internet:

Should we ban cycling its resouce and energy hungry and generate massive pollution?

Philip Benstead | Life Member Former CTC Councillor/Trustee
Organizing events and representing cyclist in southeast since 1988

????

[AndyK]

You see some intresting things on t'internet:

Should we ban cycling its resouce and energy hungry and generate massive pollution?

Philip Benstead | Life Member Former CTC Councillor/Trustee
Organizing events and representing cyclist in southeast since 1988

To be fair, it says "cyclist", singular.

[mattheus]

You see some intresting things on t'internet:

Should we ban cycling its resouce and energy hungry and generate massive pollution?

Philip Benstead | Life Member Former CTC Councillor/Trustee
Organizing events and representing cyclist in southeast since 1988

To be fair, it says "cyclist", singular.