How does a headwind affect speed and power output?

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Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: How does a headwind affect speed and power output?

Post by Jdsk »

Chris Jeggo wrote: 12 Nov 2022, 6:01pm
Jdsk wrote: 12 Nov 2022, 4:58pm
roubaixtuesday wrote: 12 Nov 2022, 4:49pm ...
If you're answering the question "for a cyclist in still air, how does his power relate to his speed", then yes that's the cube.
Thankyou.

That's why I wanted to build on agreement rather than escalate narratives of difference.

Chris Jeggo, please? Agree with this one?
Yes, I agree.
Thankyou

Jonathan
roubaixtuesday
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Re: How does a headwind affect speed and power output?

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Jdsk,

We're trying to agree on the basics.

In order, can you indicate which of these statements you agree with, and which you do not.

I think it will enormously help the confusion.

Take them one at a time, from the top.


The total energy input is force x distance (this is a completely general equation).

The power is energy/ time.

So power = force x (distance/ time)

(Distance / time) is speed.

The force is proportional to the square of relative wind speed, so the power must be too
Nearholmer
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Re: How does a headwind affect speed and power output?

Post by Nearholmer »

The resistance experienced by a moving vehicle (a person on a bike being a particular type of vehicle) has components as follows:

- a resistance proportional to weight, usually from bearings and tyre compression;

- a resistance proportional to speed, usually from wheel-ground friction and dynamic tyre deformation;

- a resistance proportional to the square of the net speed at which it is passing through the air.

To understand the actual resistance experienced by any particular vehicle, it is necessary to know/discover the value of the first, and the coefficients for each of the second and third. Despite ferreting around a bit, I’ve never been able to find typical coefficients for people on bikes, but I bet that they’re either in the book mentioned above, or well known to pro cycling bods.

For most vehicles, the output engine/motor power is known, and some cyclists think they know their sustainable output power (I have my doubts about whether most really do). That power can expressed as (force x distance)/time, allowing the force available at any given speed to be calculated.

This allows two curves of force vs speed, one for the vehicle output power, and one for the vehicle resistance, to be plotted against the same axes. The speed at which the two curves cross is known as “balancing speed” and is the speed beyond which the vehicle cannot be accelerated, as illustrated here on the back of an old envelope:
B1FE38AC-1EF5-4C53-8DC8-41C4962B41D9.jpeg
Best ways to make the vehicle go faster?

- increase the output power;

- decrease the coefficient applicable to the third component, the fancy name for which is ‘streamlining’, and for cycling involves picking cyclists with a small frontal area, narrow people, and making them crouch down, and wear silly hats, and making the bike ‘aero’;

- decrease the coefficient applicable to the second component by making wheel and surface as smooth as possible. This is why trains have such low resistance, and in bike terms means a dead smooth road and ‘tread-less’ tyres as hard as rocks;

- reduce weight, because of its impact on the first component;

- reducing bearing friction.

Because most cycling isn’t on super-smooth surfaces, there is an extra loss to consider, in terms of energy consumed in wobbling bits of cyclist around and flinging the bike and cyclist in the air as the wheels go over bumps, however tiny, so optimising the second component gets interesting, and takes us to the complex debates about tyre sizes and pressures.

Did I get that right?
Last edited by Nearholmer on 12 Nov 2022, 6:42pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jdsk
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Re: How does a headwind affect speed and power output?

Post by Jdsk »

Most of it. : - )

I'd also include force needed to accelerate the mass and rotational speed of the bike and its parts.

And gravitational forces.

Yes, Bicycling Science is a great place to start.

Resistance is slightly ambiguous. Better to use force if that's what meant.

And that graph with two lines has "resistance", "force" and "power"... which is being plotted?
Nearholmer wrote: 12 Nov 2022, 6:33pm - a resistance proportional to the square of the net speed at which it is passing through the air.
What does "net" mean"? Yes, the aerodynamic drag force does go up as the square of airspeed. But note the last few pages of this thread haven't reached agreement on this yet.

Jonathan
axel_knutt
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Re: How does a headwind affect speed and power output?

Post by axel_knutt »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 12 Nov 2022, 6:13pm
The total energy input is force x distance (this is a completely general equation).

The power is energy/ time.

So power = force x (distance/ time)

(Distance / time) is speed.

The force is proportional to the square of relative wind speed, so the power must be too
Force is proportional to square of relative air velocity.
Energy is force on the bike multiplied by distance the bike travels along the road surface that the wheels are pushing against, (if the bike's not moving, there's no power even when the wind's blowing a hoolie).
Power is energy/time = force x bike distance/time = force x bike velocity
Power vs Wind.png
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
Nearholmer
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Re: How does a headwind affect speed and power output?

Post by Nearholmer »

Resistance is slightly ambiguous. Better to use force if that's what meant.
It’s “railway lingo” I’m afraid. Railway people always talk of “train resistance”, measured in units of force.
And that graph with two lines has "resistance", "force" and "power"... which is being plotted?
It’s a plot of force vs speed, one curve is the output power expressed as force at each given speed, the other is resistance expressed as force at each given speed.
What does "net" mean"?
Net means resultant.
But note the last few pages of this thread haven't reached agreement on this yet.
Oh dear.
Last edited by Nearholmer on 12 Nov 2022, 6:51pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jdsk
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Re: How does a headwind affect speed and power output?

Post by Jdsk »

Nearholmer wrote: 12 Nov 2022, 6:47pm
Resistance is slightly ambiguous. Better to use force if that's what meant.
It’s “railway lingo” I’m afraid. Railway people always talk of “train resistance”, measured in units of force.
I didn't know that. Thanks.
Nearholmer wrote: 12 Nov 2022, 6:47pm
And that graph with two lines has "resistance", "force" and "power"... which is being plotted?
It’s a plot of force vs speed, one curve is the output power expressed as force at each given speed, the other is resistance expressed as force at each given speed.
Thanks. I'll have another look.

Jonathan
roubaixtuesday
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Re: How does a headwind affect speed and power output?

Post by roubaixtuesday »

axel_knutt wrote: 12 Nov 2022, 6:46pm
roubaixtuesday wrote: 12 Nov 2022, 6:13pm
The total energy input is force x distance (this is a completely general equation).

The power is energy/ time.

So power = force x (distance/ time)

(Distance / time) is speed.

The force is proportional to the square of relative wind speed, so the power must be too
Force is proportional to square of relative air velocity.
Energy is force on the bike multiplied by distance the bike travels along the road surface that the wheels are pushing against, (if the bike's not moving, there's no power even when the wind's blowing a hoolie).
Power is energy/time = force x bike distance/time = force x bike velocity
Power vs Wind.png
We agree.
Jdsk
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Re: How does a headwind affect speed and power output?

Post by Jdsk »

Nearholmer wrote: 12 Nov 2022, 6:33pm...
- a resistance proportional to the square of the net speed at which it is passing through the air.
...
Nearholmer wrote: 12 Nov 2022, 6:47pm
What does "net" mean"?
Net means resultant.
Ah... this might take us back half a page.

Does that mean *speed of the bike-and-rider through the air, or something else?

Thanks

Jonathan

* Same as axel_nutt's "relative air velocity".
Nearholmer
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Re: How does a headwind affect speed and power output?

Post by Nearholmer »

I'd also include force needed to accelerate the mass and rotational speed of the bike and its parts.

And gravitational forces.
Inertia only applies to changes of speed, it doesn’t present a resistance to motion at a given speed, and gravity only gets interesting when we bring gradients in, which we haven’t yet.

Which is why they aren’t there, for now.
Nearholmer
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Re: How does a headwind affect speed and power output?

Post by Nearholmer »

Does that mean *speed of the bike-and-rider through the air, or something else?
Two vectors, each having speed and direction, wind, and the motion of vehicle, find the difference to get the resultant experienced by the vehicle.
Last edited by Nearholmer on 12 Nov 2022, 7:39pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jdsk
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Re: How does a headwind affect speed and power output?

Post by Jdsk »

Nearholmer wrote: 12 Nov 2022, 7:33pm
Does that mean *speed of the bike-and-rider through the air, or something else?
Two vectors, each having speed and direction, wind, and the motion of vehicle, sum them together to get the resultant experienced by the vehicle.
Thanks.

Yes, we're saying the same thing.

Jonathan
Nearholmer
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Re: How does a headwind affect speed and power output?

Post by Nearholmer »

Actually, we weren’t, because I typed it wrongly - now corrected, and yes, I think we are.
Jdsk
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Re: How does a headwind affect speed and power output?

Post by Jdsk »

: - )

Jonathan
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Chris Jeggo
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Re: How does a headwind affect speed and power output?

Post by Chris Jeggo »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 12 Nov 2022, 6:13pm Jdsk,

We're trying to agree on the basics.

In order, can you indicate which of these statements you agree with, and which you do not.

I think it will enormously help the confusion.

Take them one at a time, from the top.


The total energy input is force x distance (this is a completely general equation).

The power is energy/ time.

So power = force x (distance/ time)

(Distance / time) is speed.

The force is proportional to the square of relative wind speed, so the power must be too
I agree with all those.
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