EV owners to pay Tax.....

[Biospace]

As opposed to to an IC engined vehicle which just goes on increasing it's carbon footprint owner after owner. Of course they're greener.

Somewhere I've a graph showing the carbon figures, for EVs vs ICEv. For an EV with a large battery, it's a very long time/high mileage before they 'break even'.

[Denis99]

Not to mention the ICE consumables….

Oil,oil filter, cam belt, diesel particulate filter, exhaust, coolant,

Then there is the things that goes wrong.
Gearbox, engines, radiators,cam shafts…. The list goes on and on…. Never seem to take the footprint of these consumables into account.

Not much on an EV, cabin filter, tyres,brake pads eventually,

[PedallingSquares]

As opposed to to an IC engined vehicle which just goes on increasing it's carbon footprint owner after owner. Of course they're greener.

Somewhere I've a graph showing the carbon figures, for EVs vs ICEv. For an EV with a large battery, it's a very long time/high mileage before they 'break even'.

Yeah but they're greener
How foolish some will look when they realise just how much they've been conned....and that's before we've even discussed what happens to the spent batteries
There's non so blind as those who won't see

Not much on an EV, cabin filter, tyres,brake pads eventually,

...and the batteries eventually which we have no way of disposing of The cost to replace with new batteries that have a massive carbon footprint so it goes around and around.
You need to wake up to the con

[reohn2]

Volvo reckon 75,000miles before their EVs break even with an ICE powered vehicle on pollution rates,and that's a company that's not producing any more ICE powered cars.
I'm not going to search for the stats but I have seen them.

I agree that ICE powered vehicles are causing lots of local pollution,that's why IMHO they should be banned from town and city centres where there's the most footfall.

EDIT:- one more point,batteries in Evs don't last forever,so an Ecar say does 100,000miles on the first battery(unlikely it'll retain it's useable range at that mileage so could very well be sooner),the car then is practically worthless unless a new battery is installed,at what cost?
For arguments sake say £2,000(?)+ installation say £500,who'll spend that amount on say(average mileage) a ten year old car?

[Denis99]

The batteries are recyclable, they can be used in lower demand situations like home solar power storage batteries.


And of course, everyone knows just how recyclable a blown up ICE engine is.

[Biospace]

The batteries are recyclable, they can be used in lower demand situations like home solar power storage batteries.

And of course, everyone knows just how recyclable a blown up ICE engine is.

An engine is perhaps one of the more easily and efficiently recycled parts of a motor car, made mostly of steel and aluminium alloys. It is the printed circuit boards and plastics which present the biggest problem.

Sugegsting that EV batteries are recyclable because they can be repurposed is missing the point. What matters is how long they can be used efficiently, in whatever purpose, then to what extent they can be broken down into constituent materials and remanufactured.

As batteries lose efficiency, they waste energy both in charge and discharge cycles compared with a new, healthy battery.

Oil,oil filter, cam belt, diesel particulate filter, exhaust, coolant,

Then there is the things that goes wrong.
Gearbox, engines, radiators,cam shafts…. The list goes on and on…. Never seem to take the footprint of these consumables into account.

Not much on an EV, cabin filter, tyres,brake pads eventually,

This is likely why EVs will take over from the ICEv - simplicity (and better profits).

Eventually they will be a little less harmful to the planet once we've learned how to recycle a lot more than the current very low percentage of a lithium battery, ot when a less harmful and awkward battery material is found, but not by anywhere near as much as those who buy into the whole "Zero Emission" nonsense believe.

That is, unless we apply similar common sense to the motor vehicle as the EU has to the vacuum cleaner. At the moment, engine/motor power just goes up and up, to satisfy consumer expectations and the ever-increasing mass of cars.

[reohn2]

The batteries are recyclable, they can be used in lower demand situations like home solar power storage batteries.


And of course, everyone knows just how recyclable a blown up ICE engine is.

How often do ICE engines blow up these days if serviced regularly?
The last five cars I've owned have done at least 120,000miles and two of them did over 150,000miles with need for little outlay other than servicing.I fact one of them a '97 Mondeo 1.8l petrol estate with 164,000miles on(still in amazing condition BTW),I sold to a young chap who lived 10miles away who'd been made redundant and told me he was going to use it for a taxi(private hire),two years later i saw him coming the other way in it with private hire on the roof,so heaven knows what mileage he'd done in it since I sold it to him.
My last but one car a 1.8l petrol Cmax my daughter still has when I gave it her five years ago with 90,000miles on and tells me it's the most reliable car she's ever had and has only cost her servicing and tyres,they aren't a hi mileage family but she'll have done at least 35,00miles in it.

BTW I agree about the batteries,though I suspect most won't be.

[geocycle]

Measured in terms of carbon it will take many years for an EV to cover its manufacturing costs by reduced running costs. That's a statement that is generally borne out by the available studies. Putting numbers on that statement is difficult as it depends enormously on assumption made about the powergrid at the point of manufacture and that where it is used. So an EV in Norway using HEP will cover its carbon costs quicker than one in Germany with more fossil fuels. It is also likely that the electricity grids in places that make EVs like China and S Korea will eventually become less dependent on coal, but how quickly is hard to say. These assumptions are easily manipulated by interested parties.

Then there are arguments about how difficult it is to reduce diffuse air pollution in urban areas versus the point source effects of battery production. The local costs of lithium extraction will be high and probably fall deferentially on those with low incomes, but in theory is easier to manage at source than diffuse atmospheric pollution in cities. This is an area that needs urgent attention along with battery recycling.

Particulates from tyres and brakes comprise about half the particulate pollution, so it was recently argued that heavier EVs would contribute more from tyres, but a range rover comes in at 2.5 tonnes, more than most EVs (1.8 tonnes for a tesla) and do we really need so many range rovers. Again it depends on how the calculation is made.

The one thing I would agree on is that EVs are not a panacea and obviously will do nothing for congestion. Nevertheless we must be really careful about the way data is being presented and what vested interests are behind it.

[mjr]

"Greenest personal motorised four wheeled heavy vehicle" is a bit like “least murdery serial killer", isn't it? It might be the greenest or least murdery but it might still not be a good thing.

[Nearholmer]

Well put.

Somewhere I've a graph showing the carbon figures, for EVs vs ICEv. For an EV with a large battery, it's a very long time/high mileage before they 'break even'.

The Institution of Engineering and Technology published a very good analysis c18 months ago, looking specifically at CO2 generated, and the break even point depended heavily on the source of the electricity used to build and charge the car. IIRC, and I confess that I may not, in France the break even was c30k kilometres (or was it miles?) driven, in the UK about double that, for a typical medium-sized hatchback, because of the high proportion of nuclear in French “grid mix” electricity, and the high proportion of gas in ours.

Like Reohn, my previous car became a taxi, at the tender age of fifteen years! I decided to get rid of it because it needed about £6k of transmission and engine management system work; the guy who bought it reckoned he could get it done for £4k, and that he could then get another 75-100k mikes out of it at least (it had already done c125k). TBH, I regret selling it, I should have spent the money on the work, because I’ve never liked the car I replaced it with and the mileage I do these days is very low indeed.

[ANTONISH]

As for some of the comments about EV being less green than fossil fuel cars, well that’s just plain ignorance and choosing to believe the Daily Mail , and their ilk, propaganda media.

There is plenty of evidence out there regarding the fact that most EVs are not greener than ICE vehicles.When you factor in the CF from manufacture then where and how the Electricity to charge them is from they are far from the 'green' option.In fact depending on who/what evidence you choose to believe they have to travel anything from 13,000 to 50,000 miles before they even break even with an ICE vehicle.The propaganda you are inferring is actually coming from those selling the EV myth.

We need of course to factor in the pollution caused by the waste produced in the mining process of rare earths (radio active Thorium being one) etc used in the manufacture of electric motors, batteries and electronic systems of EV's - it isn't just the emission of CO2 which is the problem.
Of course as has been said the electrical energy to charge the EV doesn't all come from clean energy.

[Stevek76]

Er li ion batteries can be properly recycled as well as reused. Not sure why there seems to be a thought here that only a small part of them is recoverable.

"Greenest personal motorised four wheeled heavy vehicle" is a bit like “least murdery serial killer", isn't it? It might be the greenest or least murdery but it might still not be a good thing.

Quite, and therefore tax is perfectly justified in the basis they are still net harmful.

[mumbojumbo]

If you get hit by an E V it will still hurt.,and they shed rubber etc.So tax them if you wish Jeremy.

[Tangled Metal]

I used to think hybrids were a stepping stone to the green car solution that are EVs. Now I don't. I see EVs as perhaps a stepping stone to the green car solution that comes next. What that is i don't know but I hoping it comes before I have to replace the van. A while before then so there's secondhand options with it.

The biggest issue with EVs for me is cost. Secondhand I don't think they're a wise option if the battery might need replacing soon. New and they're simply out of our price range. There's a premium with them which prevents them being a viable option for most people. A middle or upper class wealth option perhaps.

Another question i have is how honest are green electricity tariffs? There was a documentary on TV a while back that talked about fossil fuel generation bought green certificates from renewable generation companies such that electricity generation with a high proportion of fossil fuels could be classed as green due to greenwashing system of buying green certificates. Can't remember the details just that it makes me wonder if there's as much renewable / truly green electricity generated as is sold to us domestic customers as green power. Without truly green power generation for EVs you're not helping as much as ev makers probably claim. Another kind of dieselgate perhaps?

Whatever the situation really is taxation for road vehicles is only into the general taxation pot. I don't think the green status of vehicles will in the end be significant. It's purely about getting money into state coffers. Taxing EVs and their likely more well off owners is preferable to taxing low income workers. Just my opinion.

[Tangled Metal]

Forgot to say, the greenest car n is the one you don't get! If you get one then IMHO you should pay tax whatever n you want to call that tax doesn't matter. What matters most is to encouraging lower vehicle ownership through various push pull methods. Higher tax on vehicles through to making alternatives work better and a culture change. Pipedream that is.