E-bike battery fires

[Bsteel]

It would be nice to have more information on the number of failures of cells / battery packs that were of a good quality and that had been used with appropriate charge / discharge and physical protection.

[hemo]

Ebike battery fires in the UK afaik are rare so the escooter fires shouldn't be lumped in with ebikes as their use and treatment are very different to ebikes. Most I expect are simply plugged in to charge and probably left in that state causing heat and BMS failures, the public need educating on lithium ion battery use and charging.

[thirdcrank]

Is it possible that some "battery" fires are caused by some other part of the installation?

I claim no expertise but I do remember an incident with NiCads in their fairly early days on the consumer market. I had 2 of the D Cell size in an Ever Ready "Frontguard" lamp hopefully shown in this ebay listing (for illustration purposes only)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/144805131920 ... R77XmJGQYQ

Ever Ready lamps were notorious for duff connections and needed repeated fiddling to get them working. Anyway, my fiddling caused the cells in the lamp to discharge so quickly that parts of the plastic lamp melted. A larger battery discharging so quickly might have caused a fire - through no fault of the battery

[tykeboy2003]

presumably you can still buy CE marked batteries post brexit. I don't think the new standards body will be with us any time soon, the government has just kicked that can down the road again I think. Anyway the important thing is to buy decent quality batteries, don't use damaged kit, and don't charge unattended.

The introduction of the UKCA has been kicked 2 years down the road, ie after the next General Election which the Tories won't win so it's effectively the end of it. The CE mark is here to stay.

[tykeboy2003]

Back to batteries, it's a bit worrying these days with the number of Li-ion batteries we use and charge on a daily basis - just from mobile phones, tablets and laptops, leaving aside the relatively rare ebikes and scooters. Yet I'm sure most people don't even register it as a hazard.

[rareposter]

It's a bit worrying these days with the number of Li-ion batteries we use and charge on a daily basis - just from mobile phones, tablets and laptops, leaving aside the relatively rare ebikes and scooters. Yet I'm sure most people don't even register it as a hazard.

To be fair, phones are almost always bought on contract from certified outlets which have been supplied from certified manufacturers and the batteries (at least on modern phones) are not readily interchangeable so there's no problems with dodgy suppliers or user-related bodge jobs.

Same with a lot of bike lights - it'd be unusual for someone to buy a random kit and build their own so the batteries are coming from legit suppliers.

Because e-scooters in particular are technically illegal (on public roads at least) the "black market" for them and for modifications is out of control. There's not the regulation or enforcement which you could have if you made them legal.

[tykeboy2003]

It's a bit worrying these days with the number of Li-ion batteries we use and charge on a daily basis - just from mobile phones, tablets and laptops, leaving aside the relatively rare ebikes and scooters. Yet I'm sure most people don't even register it as a hazard.

To be fair, phones are almost always bought on contract from certified outlets which have been supplied from certified manufacturers and the batteries (at least on modern phones) are not readily interchangeable so there's no problems with dodgy suppliers or user-related bodge jobs.

Same with a lot of bike lights - it'd be unusual for someone to buy a random kit and build their own so the batteries are coming from legit suppliers.

Because e-scooters in particular are technically illegal (on public roads at least) the "black market" for them and for modifications is out of control. There's not the regulation or enforcement which you could have if you made them legal.

While I agree with you, I have seen phone batteries which have swelled somewhat (one being a Samsung which had expanded to over twice it's original thickness) and wondered if they had been close to bursting into flame...

[mattheus]

It's a bit worrying these days with the number of Li-ion batteries we use and charge on a daily basis - just from mobile phones, tablets and laptops, leaving aside the relatively rare ebikes and scooters. Yet I'm sure most people don't even register it as a hazard.

To be fair, phones are almost always bought on contract from certified outlets which have been supplied from certified manufacturers and the batteries (at least on modern phones) are not readily interchangeable so there's no problems with dodgy suppliers or user-related bodge jobs.

Same with a lot of bike lights - it'd be unusual for someone to buy a random kit and build their own so the batteries are coming from legit suppliers.

Because e-scooters in particular are technically illegal (on public roads at least) the "black market" for them and for modifications is out of control. There's not the regulation or enforcement which you could have if you made them legal.

While I agree with you, I have seen phone batteries which have swelled somewhat (one being a Samsung which had expanded to over twice it's original thickness) and wondered if they had been close to bursting into flame...

Yeah, I've seen that swelling (with an old phone in a drawer).
The more likely cause of conflagration is over-charging, and the fact that incompatible chargers/cables MIGHT get used.

An eVehicle battery carries way more risk - IMO - simply due to storing vastly more energy.

[Audax67]

Didn't read the entire thread, did read the article, apologies if someone already mentioned this:

Delivery men are likely to be eking as many km out of their batteries as possible and buggering the dielectrics. When they charge up again the current will encounter less resistance and heat up the battery. If in addition they're using the wrong chargers then fill in the dots...

The Graun loves a good headline, what paper doesn't, but this one was calculated to cause alarm among eBike users and, more annoyingly, their partners. I still read and even support the rag, but more and more it's just to pay for the crosswords.

[Psamathe]

It would be interesting to get a sense of proportion in the numbers. The article states 200 fires this year and if this was caused by e.g. 400 e-bike batteries in NY then it would be horrendous whereas if caused by 200,000 e-bike batteries then it is still tragic but maybe not the same failure rate.

If there is an issue with sub-standard quality batteries then does the certification (UL) process proposed address the issue or just place additional costs on users?

The fires and deaths are tragic and if there are means to reduce such failures subject to other impacts then great but it would be interesting to have comparisons with e.g. gas appliance fires or many other causes of accident and deaths.

(I did read the article but maybe I missed aspects?).

Ian

[hemo]

A lot of small devices use pouch cells so are li -polymer (li-po), thye are less stable then li-on and both are less stable then lifepo4 which now has a newer shorter monica of lfp.
Li -po will and does swell when they age of break down, when they do so it is time to get rid of them. Best way to nutrilise them is to chuck them in a bucket of water for safety.
Li -po over the last dozen years or more have been the main stay power source in the RC world and then moved over to ebikes in OEM and diy form, in the main replacing the heavier Nicad ,nimh and lifepo4 batteries.

Lifepo4 are by the safest of all batteries but their weight and size goes against their use for ebike solutions or lighter quadricycles , they are perfect though for power supplies in the enrgy sector or for heavier Ev,s.

[rjb]

Li-ion batteries pack a lot of energy. A 12.5 amphr battery operating at 36 volts packs in almost 1/2 a Kw HR. A short circuit could discharge enough heat to cause significant damage. I suspect many fires are caused by a short circuit due to poor wiring installations. Fires when charging are more likely in damaged batteries due to them being abused. Dropped would be a likely cause of battery damage.

[Cugel]

Didn't read the entire thread, did read the article, apologies if someone already mentioned this:

Delivery men are likely to be eking as many km out of their batteries as possible and buggering the dielectrics. When they charge up again the current will encounter less resistance and heat up the battery. If in addition they're using the wrong chargers then fill in the dots...

The Graun loves a good headline, what paper doesn't, but this one was calculated to cause alarm among eBike users and, more annoyingly, their partners. I still read and even support the rag, but more and more it's just to pay for the crosswords.

A tangential matter to that of the thread but worthy of the diversion.

There are no newspaps that pass Max Weber's test of "responsible journalism", largely for the reasons he himself identified, namely the fact that newspapers are privately owned voices of particular syndicates and their particular interests rather than disinterested voices trying to inform and educate the public at large about their individual and collective interests and the risks to them from various doings.

"Weber makes the important point that, anticipating the enduring debate about the professional status of journalism compared with other occupations, journalists’ sense of responsibility ought to be far greater than that of other professionals because they are aware that their irresponsibility can have lasting negative consequences on public opinion and belief. This sense of responsibility was for Weber a defining characteristic of the occupation, but it was one that he recognised was under threat because of the rise of the commercialisation of news".

Today, every newspap bangs a particular drum, beating out the rhythms of one ideology and it's opinions & dogmas or another. The Groanydad is no different, even though it's commercialisation is at least not in the form of an individual owner who seeks perpetuation of the vast advantages and privileges of "the 0.1%" of which they themselves are generally an active member.

The Groaner purports to be a "serious" newspaper and sometimes they offer their opinions and articles in way that at least recognises and provides alternative views. But in general they seem to serve the ideology of a certain sort of middle class - bourgeoisie even - that is far too concerned and supportive of the habits of consumerism, celebrity doings, professional sport and a whole host of other stuff that has little or nothing to do with "news". It's laughable (albeit a dark humour) that they portray themselves as concerned about the climate, poverty et al yet have dozens of articles about buying stuff, flying about to foreign holidays and gushing over the inane doings of some celebrity or other.

One example is the stream of Hancock articles which, on the one hand, serve as fodder for all sorts of opinion pieces and gawp-gasps of outrage but on the other continue to provide the creature with the oxygen of publicity, by which he hopes to distract from his past sins in favour of his value as a new-model reality show entertainer.

********
The Groan, like other such organs, is commercialised and relies on sales. It'll publish stuff that attracts any and all kinds of "customers". It, like every other such media organ, is part propaganda organ and part comic (fashion, sport, cooking, restaurants, decorating, pretty houses etc..etc.) for distracting and soothing the masses concerning the stuff that's seriously affecting their lives, whilst at the same time titillating with "shock-horror" opinion pieces.

So, "shock-horror" and "look at these bad people and their risky behaviours" are found not just in the Daily Hate Mail but also in the Groan. The e-bike battery article attempts a tone of disinterested information but is essentially a piece of hyperbolic shouting about a risk that is not that far short of slipping into hysteria. "Responsible journalism" of the Weber kind it is not.

Cugel

[ThePinkOne]

Reading the piece, it seems the problem is with _some_ batteries. But people don't know which ones. So, testing and certification (costs money) is part of the answer.

Quite so - as with so many other manufactured goods, allowing a drop in standards in favour of a "free market" of any old battery maker means some dangerous stuff result. Ah red tape - where are you when we need you? Burnt on the bonfire of neolib dogma (along with various houses and humans).

Cugel

You're correct about the red tape but there's also a couple of other issues which make a big difference.

(1) Standards are lagging far behind the technology. To the point where in some cases, it's the USA (with their highly litigious culture) who is ahead of the game(!!!).

(2) The buyer wants a bargain. (Don't underestimate this factor).

Couple these 2 things together, add in a large on-line marketplace (where brands may not be genuine) and you will end up with dodgy batteries.

LiPos in particular need proper charging and storage. However decent chargers cost money and a storage regime on a dumb battery needs effort so often is the first place that corners are cut.

It's a big deal in the drone world. I have a number of DJI drones, and DJI both make their kit idiot-proof and control the distribution tightly. Their batteries have built-in charging circuitry and are smart, so if not used for a few days self-discharge to a storage charge. You will not find a genuine DJI part at much of a reduced price as they control the retail chain tightly, same price whether on a well-known on-line retailer, chains like Argos or specialist authorised dealers. Their kit is pricey but it works out of the box and their Lipo batteries are very reliable/stable even though they are very high-powered for the weight (drones need good power-weight ratio even more than cyclists do ).

By contrast, I have some more "home-brew" type drones for which I have "standard" Lipo hobbyist batteries. I also have an expensive specialist charger with balance boards and a "battery doctor" cell balance tool. Those batteries have to be charged and balanced before use, then discharged for storage (and periodically brought out and checked).

It's the difference between cheap dumb and expensive smart batteries. If you have a genuine branded product (established brand) from a reputable retailer and look after it according to the manual (and only use genuine replacement parts) chances of you having a battery fire are small. However, if you use non-branded non-genuine replacement batteries you are taking a chance. Maybe they are good, maybe not.

Overall, it's not so much about standards as about the widespread on-line market and a bunch of people who don't understand/care about battery risk and want very cheap prices. Standards are basically irrelevant when there are so many knock-offs available on-line, what we lack is Trading Standards checks and/or other controls.

TPO

P.S. Lipo batteries don't like being drained below 20% or so and fast chargers will hurt them quicker, charge rate is important and even if a battery will "take" a faster rate, a slower charge rate prolongs battery life. And they like to be stored around 50% charge. Doesn't really work too well with a user who wants their battery always ready at 100%, drains it to get most miles out of it then fast-charges it. Old-fashioned pedal bikes have a lot to recommend them!

[simonineaston]

Many of the potential buyers here in Bristol are esl and on low low wages. They are going to get the cheapest batteries they can get hold of...