Witnessing the end of the NHS

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Cugel
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Cugel »

Biospace wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 5:15pm
Cugel wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 2:41pm
One fundamental change I'd like to make to the dominant economic practice in today's world would be to make all forms of renting illegal. Instead there would be something more like hire-purchase, so as you pay more "rent" over time, you acquire a greater proportion of the ownership; an ownership you never lose unless you voluntarily sell or transfer it to another.

Put another way, this law would mean that private property can only be held for personal use (as a home or for a business). Business use would include renting models but only of the above-mentioned kind that means to renter gradually acquires a degree of ownership of what's being rented - with all the rights and duties associated with that ownership. And renting businesses can't easily become vast owners of property used to milk everyone else of what wealth they have.

The property laws are an artefact of aristocracies and long overdue for revision. Ownership of vast tracts should be illegal because such ownership (and the ability to rent with no hinderances) excludes others from a finite essential resource and gives owners a vast amount of power, which they often use to buy governments so that those governments can be suborned to the purposes of the vast property owners.

Some things should never be allowed to be private property unless highly mediated by interests besides that of the owner. One obvious example is mass media organs, which are now a major propaganda power enabling those owning vast amounts of property, power and pounds to keep things as they are, to their own vast advantage.

Cugel, levelling away.

Land too? What a positive post this is in a world where I hear of nothing but more renting, more transfer of financial wealth to the very richest.

I sense challenges to democracy taking place as $trillion mega-corps increasingly control our governments. Aristotle suggested democracy was a fragile concept, that it would naturally collapse without care and attention.
The thing is that property ownership of an amount that you merely need rather than want is a great installer of a sense of belonging, worth and responsibility. But allow it to burgeon into a greedy grasping for more property as a status symbol or merely out of an obsessive lust and the property notion becomes a blight on any society. More for him means less for her (and her & him & ......).

Laws to restrict the amount you can own automatically increase the amount you can own for 99.999% of the population! Being a finite resource (land-wise, water-wise, ore-wise etc.) more equitable distribution laws enable everyone to belong, to thrive and to co-operate. If you have nothing but rent-debt, none of those are possible, not even cooperation, so you turn to crime or die. Consider the USA.

Cugel, probably a pink livered commie snowflake virtual protestor in need of a good post-burnin' by a Tory executioner following a polis boot&bruise arrest for non-conformist tendencies; and a show trial inclusive of over-fulsome praise for all landlords everywhere obtained by threats of, and actual, tortures.
Last edited by Cugel on 13 Dec 2022, 9:30pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
Psamathe
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Psamathe »

simonineaston wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 6:06pm Chums who are hospital based tell of consultants who are choosing to work less than full time - or even quit - due to some complex rules affecting their pension. (They did explain but I couldn't grasp it...) Who worked that clever system out?? What brilliance - apply financial pressure to your most experienced staff such that they do less hours... !!
I don't know if it's the same issue but some years ago a friend who was an NHS consultant retired and was taking her NHS (& state) pensions. Then NHS asked her to start working again to cover 1 year maternity leave (my guess 1 year as they didn't know if maternity leave might end in a resignation). Had she returned for the year she'd have lost her NHS pension for the time working as NHS rules prevent them paying somebody "twice".

I wonder if these days she could have started "Retired Consultants Ltd", made herself an employee and charged the NHS twice her salary and kept her pension. But then I'm a cynic.

Ian
Vitara
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Joined: 12 Feb 2014, 11:18pm

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Vitara »

Psamathe wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 7:33pm
simonineaston wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 6:06pm Chums who are hospital based tell of consultants who are choosing to work less than full time - or even quit - due to some complex rules affecting their pension. (They did explain but I couldn't grasp it...) Who worked that clever system out?? What brilliance - apply financial pressure to your most experienced staff such that they do less hours... !!
I don't know if it's the same issue but some years ago a friend who was an NHS consultant retired and was taking her NHS (& state) pensions. Then NHS asked her to start working again to cover 1 year maternity leave (my guess 1 year as they didn't know if maternity leave might end in a resignation). Had she returned for the year she'd have lost her NHS pension for the time working as NHS rules prevent them paying somebody "twice".

I wonder if these days she could have started "Retired Consultants Ltd", made herself an employee and charged the NHS twice her salary and kept her pension. But then I'm a cynic.

Ian
No she couldn't that rule is still in place; The total of your NHS Pension + NHS pay cannot be more than you were earning prior to retirement.

It's not unusual for Nurses to Retire then return to part time work, but you have to be careful about how many hours you work, iearn too much and your pension payments are automatically reduced so you effectively give your time and expertise for free.

As you can possibly imagine there was a big demand for Retired Nurses to work extra shifts during the Pandemic, fortunately and sensibly the rule was suspended during this period, but has now been re-instated.
Pebble
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Joined: 7 Jun 2020, 11:59pm

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Pebble »

Had to take someone to Accident and Emergency today, (got their hand caught in a car door, it looked painful especially in this weather) thought i would just abandon him there and pick him up sometime next week after he had been seen. What a surprise, there was no queue, doctor seen him in 10 minutes, nurses bandaged him up and home all within the same hour....
reohn2
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by reohn2 »

Vitara wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 8:27pm
Psamathe wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 7:33pm
simonineaston wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 6:06pm Chums who are hospital based tell of consultants who are choosing to work less than full time - or even quit - due to some complex rules affecting their pension. (They did explain but I couldn't grasp it...) Who worked that clever system out?? What brilliance - apply financial pressure to your most experienced staff such that they do less hours... !!
I don't know if it's the same issue but some years ago a friend who was an NHS consultant retired and was taking her NHS (& state) pensions. Then NHS asked her to start working again to cover 1 year maternity leave (my guess 1 year as they didn't know if maternity leave might end in a resignation). Had she returned for the year she'd have lost her NHS pension for the time working as NHS rules prevent them paying somebody "twice".

I wonder if these days she could have started "Retired Consultants Ltd", made herself an employee and charged the NHS twice her salary and kept her pension. But then I'm a cynic.

Ian
No she couldn't that rule is still in place; The total of your NHS Pension + NHS pay cannot be more than you were earning prior to retirement.

It's not unusual for Nurses to Retire then return to part time work, but you have to be careful about how many hours you work, iearn too much and your pension payments are automatically reduced so you effectively give your time and expertise for free.

As you can possibly imagine there was a big demand for Retired Nurses to work extra shifts during the Pandemic, fortunately and sensibly the rule was suspended during this period, but has now been re-instated.
I wonder if that same rule is applicable to those nurses and doctors who choose to come out of retirement and work in the private sector.
I suspect not,but stand to be corrected if I'm wrong.
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
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Debs
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Debs »

Vitara
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Vitara »

[/quote]
I wonder if that same rule is applicable to those nurses and doctors who choose to come out of retirement and work in the private sector.
I suspect not,but stand to be corrected if I'm wrong.
[/quote]

It applies to earnings from NHS sources, so in short no.

In reality Nurses who Retire & Return, & there are quite few, I'm one of 3 in our Team, are far more likely to continue to work for the NHS, either directly, on an NHS Bank or via the NHS Professionals Agency, than they are to work for the Private Sector.

In many ways it's a beneficial system for both the individual and the NHS; part time hours are less stressful, while the NHS is still able to use our experience and expertise.

I'm regularly asked to work additional shifts to cover sickness etc. & I with no childcare issues and a social life I can easily juggle around I'm generally happy to do that. Bringing me in for extra shifts means my Manager has a Nurse that she knows and who Knows the Team and the Job.

The ruling I referred to is intended to avoid the Media Headlines you referred to above of "Nurse Retires and returns to work on Double their salary" On my pay band that isn't going to happen, but the number of extra shifts I was working during the Pandemic/Lockdown could have pushed me over my earnings limit if the ruling hadn't been relaxed. Now it's back in place I can find myself in that position near the end of the financial year, which coincidentally is one of our busiest times. When this happens & I can't take on extra shifts without being financially penalised (essentially I would be working for zero pay) it can be very frustrating for both me and my Manager. But that's the rules.
reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by reohn2 »

Vitara
Thanks for the insight and explanation of the situation.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
thirdcrank
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by thirdcrank »

I suspect a couple of different things are involved here.

I think some public sector pension schemes have rules about drawing a final salary pension when becoming entitled to do so and then continuing to work in a role within the scheme. Then, there's the scheme - introduced IIRC by Gordon Brown as chancellor - which limits the tax reliefs on occupational pension benefits, with the Lifetime Pension Allowance.

https://www.gov.uk/tax-on-your-private- ... -allowance

Although that refers to "private" pension contributions, I think that means private as compared to National Insurance.

Over the years, there has been publicity about how this affects various professions - senior judges being an example. Lower down the ladder, where people tend to have jobs, it's just administrative hassle. mrs thirdcrank trained as a nurse when our children left school and is a member - now drawing her pensions - of several schemes eg three years NHS, several years West Yorkshire Local Govt (through working in a nursing role for a charity) and Age Concern, as well as some bits and pieces of additional voluntary contributions - AVCs. She receives annual statements from each, which include info like "this amounts to 0.3% of your lifetime allowance." She'll need to outlive Methuselah to exceed her LPA but is paying through hidden charges for the beancounting involved. In the meantime, there are the inevitable schemes to help higher earners eg there was a lot of publicity when the BBC introduced schemes for some of their higher earners.

https://www.bkl.co.uk/insights/intermed ... edia-hmrc/
Debs
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Debs »

pete75
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Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by pete75 »

thirdcrank wrote: 22 Dec 2022, 10:24am I suspect a couple of different things are involved here.

I think some public sector pension schemes have rules about drawing a final salary pension when becoming entitled to do so and then continuing to work in a role within the scheme. Then, there's the scheme - introduced IIRC by Gordon Brown as chancellor - which limits the tax reliefs on occupational pension benefits, with the Lifetime Pension Allowance.

https://www.gov.uk/tax-on-your-private- ... -allowance

Although that refers to "private" pension contributions, I think that means private as compared to National Insurance.

Over the years, there has been publicity about how this affects various professions - senior judges being an example. Lower down the ladder, where people tend to have jobs, it's just administrative hassle. mrs thirdcrank trained as a nurse when our children left school and is a member - now drawing her pensions - of several schemes eg three years NHS, several years West Yorkshire Local Govt (through working in a nursing role for a charity) and Age Concern, as well as some bits and pieces of additional voluntary contributions - AVCs. She receives annual statements from each, which include info like "this amounts to 0.3% of your lifetime allowance." She'll need to outlive Methuselah to exceed her LPA but is paying through hidden charges for the beancounting involved. In the meantime, there are the inevitable schemes to help higher earners eg there was a lot of publicity when the BBC introduced schemes for some of their higher earners.

https://www.bkl.co.uk/insights/intermed ... edia-hmrc/
When Brown introduced the allowance 2006 it was set at £1.5 million and increased each year, reaching £1.8 million by 2012. Since then the Tories have been reducing it and it now stands at little over a million.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
sjs
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by sjs »

So if the total value of the pension fund exceeds the lifetime allowance, you retrospectively lose the tax relief on the excess over it, ie the fraction of the pension corresponding to that excess is taxed at 25%, plus any income tax due. That doesn't seem too unfair, to me.

But there is another limit, on the yearly increase in the value of the pension pot. And tax has to be paid at the marginal rate on any excess over that, in the tax year the excess occurred. I think it's that that might generate a large and unexpected tax bill.
reohn2
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by reohn2 »

Debs wrote: 2 Jan 2023, 12:11pm
Spot on!
And it won't stop there,if you can afford it you'll be looked after nicely thankyou very much,but as with the UK dental srvice,if you can't afford the premiums you're pretty much fooked.

The present Tory party and their sponsors disgust me,what's more they disgust John Major a former Tory PM.
It goes to show how low they've sunk,nothing is beneath them,the term lower than a snake's belly is too high a bar set for this set of creeps!
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Debs
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Debs »

reohn2 wrote: 2 Jan 2023, 4:45pm The present Tory party and their sponsors disgust me,what's more they disgust John Major a former Tory PM.
It goes to show how low they've sunk,nothing is beneath them,the term lower than a snake's belly is too high a bar set for this set of creeps!
I loathed John Major when he was PM and if someone told me back then i'd be in awe and respect for what he has to stand up and say today i would have had difficulty believing it.

It's also ironic that during the referendum campaigning lead-up, Vote Leave infiltrated NHS departments and installed leaflets which told patients to vote leave to save the NHS. Anyone with more than two braincells knew it was a blatant lie, but this deception was printed on NHS headed leaflets and looked like an official NHS information document.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 10031.html


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reohn2
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by reohn2 »

Debs wrote: 2 Jan 2023, 6:22pm
reohn2 wrote: 2 Jan 2023, 4:45pm The present Tory party and their sponsors disgust me,what's more they disgust John Major a former Tory PM.
It goes to show how low they've sunk,nothing is beneath them,the term lower than a snake's belly is too high a bar set for this set of creeps!
I loathed John Major when he was PM and if someone told me back then i'd be in awe and respect for what he has to stand up and say today i would have had difficulty believing it.
I couldn't agree more!
It's also ironic that during the referendum campaigning lead-up, Vote Leave infiltrated NHS departments and installed leaflets which told patients to vote leave to save the NHS. Anyone with more than two braincells knew it was a blatant lie, but this deception was printed on NHS headed leaflets and looked like an official NHS information document.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 10031.html


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There's no depths the Tories will sink to.
They've completley decimated this country on so many levels,and worst of all with the electorate's blessing,let's hope the people have finally learned their lesson that the Tory party are evil personified!
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
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