Witnessing the end of the NHS

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Debs
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Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Debs »

After 12 years of Tory administration deliberately underfunding the NHS in view of profits from privatisations, the more recent ruthless Brexit-Tory cabal is holding out yet another two years until its bitter end of being defeated in the next available General Election.
However, will it be too late by then, for a new Labour government, to save the NHS from 14 years of deliberate ongoing Tory privatisation creep?


millimole
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by millimole »

I'd say that around 50-65% of NHS services are already run by private contractors, sometimes in stealth mode.

Cleaning, portering, catering, buildings maintenance, car parks, and that's just the non-sexy stuff. Add Imaging, pharmacy, theatre supplies & sterilisation, prosthetics, hearing services, IT and a lot of back-office administration and you get the picture.
On top of this, a lot of recruitment and agency staff come through private services.

A lot of this isn't new, and some of it has been going on since 1948, but most of it has happened in the last 10-15 years and we've not noticed!

Currently those raking it in are the owners (and CEOs) of the outsourcing companies doing this work for the NHS.

But where the next push will be? I expect it will be to say that the NHS in its current form is 'too expensive' and therefore a form of insurance is required to fund it.
This puts a lot of money in the pockets of the insurance providers (who are of course either American or pals of the tories).

But why is it 'too expensive'? - reread for more information : the NHS is paying a lot to outsourcing companies to do a lot of the work it used to do perfectly well itself. Stop the outsourcing gravy train and you're half way there.
(Only half way - I've not touched on drug companies, PFI payments etc etc)
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Tangled Metal »

Didn't a lot of this come in with labour's enthusiastic embrace of the tory idea of public private partnerships? Private money to build hospitals with guaranteed services contracts to the private company. Perhaps the tories just carried on from Bliar and Brown's lead?!!
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Cugel
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Cugel »

Tangled Metal wrote: 19 Nov 2022, 4:25pm Didn't a lot of this come in with labour's enthusiastic embrace of the tory idea of public private partnerships? Private money to build hospitals with guaranteed services contracts to the private company. Perhaps the tories just carried on from Bliar and Brown's lead?!!
'Twas so. Bliar and "New Labour" (aka Tory-lite) were as dewy-eyed over neolib nonsense as all the rest of the politicos of the time, world-wide. Bliar was even described as "Maggie's lovechild" due, it's said, to his gushing admiration for her "economics" and forthright resistance to any naysayers of her claptrap.

However, it was those nasty new Tories ushered in with Maggie that first embraced the privatisation of public services fetish. They've never got over it. Even when they discovered that the ideological aspects were utter nonsense, they stayed wedded to the notion because it didn't 'arf turn out to be a good bung and second "job" creator for The Nasty Party and it's denizens.

Like minded people doing like minded crimes.

Cugel
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francovendee
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by francovendee »

Even if you ignore the additional costs of outsourcing the health service is facing never ending costs.
Treatment for previously untreatable illness and disabilities. An ageing population many who are obese. Medical equipment that needs replacing and cost much more than it did.
Will privatising it all be the answer? Of course not. What it will mean is some simply won't get the treatment and die at an earlier age.
Unless we accept that we all have to pay more via taxes the situation will get steadily worse.
How much more tax is needed to fund the NHS is the question that needs to be outside the Tory/Labour divisions.
If we had this figure then a referendum to decide if the country would back it.
I'm not keen on referendums but on such a vital matter I don't think it should be left to the politicians.
We've kicked the can down the road long enough.
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simonineaston
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by simonineaston »

In my twenties, I bought a flat in London with a chum who is now a senior figure in health service strategy, having first spent a decade working in hospital administration. I recently met up with him after a long gap and of course we spent a long time reminiscing on the subject of doctors and nurses we recall and then turned to the subject of the future of the NHS. I respect his opinion as he's a bright & energetic bunny and as far as I can tell, has had the principles of the health service at the heart of everthing he's tried to do.
From the pov of anyone wedded to the old fashioned notion of the Aneurin Bevan model, it was an extremely gloomy conversation, however said chum has always been a pragmatist and the simple fact remains that there's a flood of increasingly elderly (inc. both he & I!) people needing often increasingly expensive treatment...
We can't just insist we stick to the old ways, run out of options and sod the folk who become unwell. New ways have to be adopted, alterntatives sought, efficiencies driven through and a grim future faced. What other choice is there?
What should also happen is that a bright light shining on those who have spotted a way of getting rich and are determined to join the fray and monetise the nation's health and care to their own benefit. The money they make will disappear into tax free off shore holdings, never to be seen again - at least not by ordinary citizens. Much of it will go overseas.
Readers who think I'm balmy should carefully scrutinse what happened during the early days of the C19 pandemic, when these people were ready and got proper stuck in to the tune of BILLIONS. I wasn't exactly sure how bad this was, but my chum, who as I say, operates in very senior circles, confirmed this...
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
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al_yrpal
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by al_yrpal »

simonineaston wrote: 20 Nov 2022, 9:48am What should also happen is that a bright light shining on those who have spotted a way of getting rich and are determined to join the fray and monetise the nation's health and care to their own benefit. The money they make will disappear into tax free off shore holdings, never to be seen again - at least not by ordinary citizens. Much of it will go overseas.
Readers who think I'm balmy should carefully scrutinse what happened during the early days of the C19 pandemic, when these people were ready and got proper stuck in to the tune of BILLIONS. I wasn't exactly sure how bad this was, but my chum, who as I say, operates in very senior circles, confirmed this...
Your chum is correct, but you are in cuckoo land, those rich folk have always and will always find ways of squirrelling away their wealth beyond the taxmans grasp and will always do it whatever we do. Or, they will simply leave like "Sir" Lewis Hamilton. They dont use the NHS.

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
Psamathe
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Psamathe »

And the recent "mini-budget" continues the process of running down the NHS
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/nov/19/uk-health-spending-to-grow-less-than-in-austerity-era-analysis-reveals wrote:ealth spending ‘to grow less than in austerity era’, analysis reveals
Health spending over the next two years will grow less than during the austerity era of the last decade, according to a new analysis of the autumn statement.

The chancellor, Jeremy Hunt, a former health secretary who previously campaigned for greater resources from the backbenches, announced last week that the NHS would receive an extra £3.3bn in each of the next two years. With severe pressures growing on the service, he said it would be one of his “key priorities”.

However, research by the Health Foundation charity has found that when the whole health budget is included – covering the NHS, training, public health services and capital investment – it will only increase by 1.2% in real terms over the next two years. That is below the 2% average seen in the decade preceding the pandemic, as well as the historical average of about 3.8%.
...
Ian
Debs
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Debs »

al_yrpal wrote: 20 Nov 2022, 10:30am ...those rich folk have always and will always find ways of squirrelling away their wealth beyond the taxmans grasp and will always do it whatever we do....

Al
Their latest model vehicle for tax evasion purposes being the big tucker truck of Brexit.
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simonineaston
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by simonineaston »

Their latest model vehicle for tax evasion purposes being the big tucker truck of Brexit.
I was just about to make the same point, but Debs beat me to it. Am now sad and depressed so off for a ride to check my dynamo / wiring all working as it should. Depending on the results, that should cheer me up - or not !! Am fully expecting success due to use of new cheapNcheerful crimping tool.
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
axel_knutt
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by axel_knutt »

Anyone interested in the woes of the NHS could do worse than follow Steve Black, a data scientist specialising in healthcare who Tweets as @sib313. He gets a steady stream of NHS staff and other usual suspects coming at him with the tired tropes of more money, more staff etc, and he systematically pulls them to pieces with reams of data, much of it the NHS's own data. Hospital staff numbers are going up and up, productivity down and down. He insists that the problem is incompetence not austerity or staff shortage, like increasing staffing levels in the wrong places, bed blocking through lack of care system investment, repeated attempts at fixing problems without understanding them first, etc.
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
Stevek76
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Stevek76 »

It's typically the financial restraint that has led to such inefficiencies and poor decision making. A huge proportion of uk government inefficiency comes from the constant rearrangements that are supposed to drive efficiencies. This attitude plagues the private sector also from my observations, too many managerial staff attempting to justify their own existence by restructuring things and inventing new 'strategies' (that are largely the previous one put through a thesaurus) which change absolutely nothing for those actually delivering work.

Harsh cuts to local authority budgets since 2010 is what's trashed the care system and poor spending decisions elsewhere have also increased the health burden.

That said, we are into an era of steady state population (particularly as the same elder population we have to care for are the ones that are most opposed to working age immigration (talk about selfish) that might soften any transition) and improving medical science means an inevitable increase in the % spent on healthcare that applies regardless of the system that delivers it.

I can't help thinking the beveridge vs bismarck debate is largely an ideological irrelevancy, there are good and bad examples of both around the world, it's fairly obvious that switching systems isn't magically going to solve anything. What is going to do so is the uk needs to stop trying to expect north European quality of public services whilst trying to have a USA style tax burden.


As for 'you can't tax the rich, they'll just hide it' that always strikes me as a myth peddled by the wealthy who don't want to be taxed. The uk is a sovereign country with absolutely power over its assets and currency. If it really wanted to tax the wealthy till the pips squeak there's nothing to stop that happening. The other tool is inflation. If uk wages are allowed and actively encouraged up keep up with inflation then this largely just represents a rebalance from wealth to income, including devaluing overseas £ holdings.
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
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simonineaston
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by simonineaston »

Today's jolly motto:
Snobbery has silenced the poor for too long.
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
irc
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by irc »

In real terms 2021/22 prices the last Labour govt funded the NHS to the tune of £124BN. The 2022/23 budget is £173Bn. They are really murdering it aren't they?

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/n ... nhs-budget

Up from around 10% of GDP to 12%.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/317 ... d-kingdom/
briansnail
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by briansnail »

There is great BBC Overseas radio programme this week. It shows how poor Americans cannot afford dental or Health care.This is coz some employers like restaurants give minimum contracts to evade medical insurance. Some families lose their house due to sky high medical bills for their kids. Thank God for the NHS. The free medical wagon in Viginia is run by the military.
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