Witnessing the end of the NHS

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reohn2
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by reohn2 »

irc wrote: 20 Nov 2022, 4:03pm In real terms 2021/22 prices the last Labour govt funded the NHS to the tune of £124BN. The 2022/23 budget is £173Bn. They are really murdering it aren't they?

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/n ... nhs-budget

Up from around 10% of GDP to 12%.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/317 ... d-kingdom/
Do you have any figures for the increase in social care spending for the same period?
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irc
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by irc »

reohn2 wrote: 20 Nov 2022, 4:58pm
irc wrote: 20 Nov 2022, 4:03pm In real terms 2021/22 prices the last Labour govt funded the NHS to the tune of £124BN. The 2022/23 budget is £173Bn. They are really murdering it aren't they?

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/n ... nhs-budget

Up from around 10% of GDP to 12%.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/317 ... d-kingdom/
Do you have any figures for the increase in social care spending for the same period?
No. If you want to make a point about social care I'm sure you can find the numbers with a bit of research.
Bsteel
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Bsteel »

The funding looks a little different when adjusted for population size.
https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/news-i ... on-the-nhs
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Debs
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Debs »

reohn2 wrote: 20 Nov 2022, 4:58pm
Do you have any figures for the increase in social care spending for the same period?
I expect the reason the Tory figure looks very high of late, is because the NHS is obligated to transfer quite a lot of it into private contracting. In other words the UK taxpayer is being conned with £ billions subsidising private heath care.
A similar Tory scam is employed to use taxpayers money to fund private education, along with lucrative tax breaks.
Stevek76
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Stevek76 »

The other reason the % vs GDP has gone up is because our GDP has failed to recover anywhere near as much as most other countries due to a mix of tory incompetence and brexit (which really technically comes under the former)
reohn2 wrote: 20 Nov 2022, 4:58pm Do you have any figures for the increase in social care spending for the same period?
Quite, and what social care is being undertaken is now being funded by a substantially more regressive tax burden as it's been dumped onto council tax increases.
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
reohn2
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by reohn2 »

Debs,Stevek76 :wink:
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Carlton green
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Carlton green »

Tangled Metal wrote: 19 Nov 2022, 4:25pm Didn't a lot of this come in with labour's enthusiastic embrace of the tory idea of public private partnerships? Private money to build hospitals with guaranteed services contracts to the private company. Perhaps the tories just carried on from Bliar and Brown's lead?!!
One of the stupidest ideas ever and it’s cost the tax payer an absolute packet, I believe it was done at the time to shore-up employment … a misguided way of doing things I think. The Blair years also introduced some new NHS contracts, IIRC, and they ended up being damaging … and wasn’t there some fiasco with NHS computing too under that era of Labour Government. That’s not to say that the Tories are good but rather that mistakes were made.

I know people who work in the NHS and I know users of the NHS. From both groups hear tales of incompetence, gross incompetence, and a lack of change. Why is there that incompetence? Poor leadership is the main answer and particularly at the highest levels. We are short of Doctors because of stupidity in tax and pension systems plus their overwork. We are short of Nurses because of stupidity in their training system and likewise many other health professionals.

On NHS finances the private sector has its nose in the trough and I note the earlier post by Simon on that topic. Basically the NHS is being milked by anyone who can tap into it.

What’s the answer? There isn’t an easy one that’s also a functional answer. More money is nice but sorting out staffing (their issues) would be better; that would include changing why a significant percentage of new qualified Doctors leave this country to live and work abroad too. Mistakes are made by Doctors, Nurses and other staff; the answer isn’t punishment but rather: comprehension of what went wrong; changing systems as appropriate; and retraining as appropriate.

This evening a friend of many decades lies dying in significant pain. He got cancer nearly three years ago and the NHS has made a pretty good attempt to save him but CV19 got in the way, etc. End of life care has been less than poor due to lack of GP support, errors by who did come, and insufficient nursing support. It could, with just a bit of thought and appropriate competence, have been so much better - some things (like doing a good job) don’t cost a lot more but make a massive amount of difference. Indeed doing the job right first time is almost always a way to save costs.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
mumbojumbo
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by mumbojumbo »

The NHS is in the public sector, being state-owned. However the culture or ideology which shapes business decisions, is a hybrid, sometimes driven by free-market thinking.
Tangled Metal
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Tangled Metal »

Does anyone know the cost to run the NHS now vs when founded? What about the number of possible treatments?
reohn2
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by reohn2 »

Carlton green wrote: 20 Nov 2022, 10:40pm
Tangled Metal wrote: 19 Nov 2022, 4:25pm Didn't a lot of this come in with labour's enthusiastic embrace of the tory idea of public private partnerships? Private money to build hospitals with guaranteed services contracts to the private company. Perhaps the tories just carried on from Bliar and Brown's lead?!!
One of the stupidest ideas ever and it’s cost the tax payer an absolute packet, I believe it was done at the time to shore-up employment … a misguided way of doing things I think. The Blair years also introduced some new NHS contracts, IIRC, and they ended up being damaging … and wasn’t there some fiasco with NHS computing too under that era of Labour Government. That’s not to say that the Tories are good but rather that mistakes were made.

I know people who work in the NHS and I know users of the NHS. From both groups hear tales of incompetence, gross incompetence, and a lack of change. Why is there that incompetence? Poor leadership is the main answer and particularly at the highest levels. We are short of Doctors because of stupidity in tax and pension systems plus their overwork. We are short of Nurses because of stupidity in their training system and likewise many other health professionals.

On NHS finances the private sector has its nose in the trough and I note the earlier post by Simon on that topic. Basically the NHS is being milked by anyone who can tap into it.

What’s the answer? There isn’t an easy one that’s also a functional answer. More money is nice but sorting out staffing (their issues) would be better; that would include changing why a significant percentage of new qualified Doctors leave this country to live and work abroad too. Mistakes are made by Doctors, Nurses and other staff; the answer isn’t punishment but rather: comprehension of what went wrong; changing systems as appropriate; and retraining as appropriate.

This evening a friend of many decades lies dying in significant pain. He got cancer nearly three years ago and the NHS has made a pretty good attempt to save him but CV19 got in the way, etc. End of life care has been less than poor due to lack of GP support, errors by who did come, and insufficient nursing support. It could, with just a bit of thought and appropriate competence, have been so much better - some things (like doing a good job) don’t cost a lot more but make a massive amount of difference. Indeed doing the job right first time is almost always a way to save costs.
I couldn't agree more about the way the NHS has been handled by governments of both colours,New Labour and the Tories should be ashamed at the way they've mishandled the NHS at all levels,but they won't!
And as you say it's noses in the trough for those who can get to it,none moreso than with the PPE scandal!
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Carlton green
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Carlton green »

Tangled Metal wrote: 21 Nov 2022, 6:52am Does anyone know the cost to run the NHS now vs when founded? What about the number of possible treatments?
That’s a very good question to which I don’t know the answer and with all the variable’s concerned - like the milking of the NHS - I’m not even sure than any answer would be clear enough to be useful. However the costs of none treatment and poor treatment are at least observable within my circle of friends and acquaintances … and then there’s the near misses that but for good luck could have had far worse consequences.

The son of a neighbour lost his wife due to poor NHS care, his small children have no mother and he’s constrained in what work he can do so less economically active (poorer) and paying less tax - misery all around. Whilst out with the dog I come across many different folk, some are away from employment or long term sick due to lack of quicker and / or better medical care. These people would like to be working, they would like wages in their pocket - from which they would have paid tax - rather than forms of sick pay; not treating them better actually costs the state money - and does so in multiple ways - and it generally damages society. A now passed old friend had a burst appendix in his fifties, that can kill you but he just got treatment in time and lived. He worked for at least another ten years and gave both grandparental care (that allowed the younger generation to work) and elder care that saved the state money - a very good return on the NHS costs.

The UK Treasury currently uses £2m as the value of a prevented fatality (VPF) in economic appraisal (based on the death of an “average” aged person e.g. from a road traffic accident).
https://www.lse.ac.uk/PBS/assets/docume ... ckdown.pdf
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Bsteel
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Bsteel »

Tangled Metal wrote: 21 Nov 2022, 6:52am Does anyone know the cost to run the NHS now vs when founded? What about the number of possible treatments?
I would say that it's impossible to work out, at present cost will equal budget + over run. However, without a proper discussion of the intended scope of the service in terms of deliverables and timescales you can't even give a estimate of cost. The present model seems to be do what you can until the money runs out.
Carlton green
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Carlton green »

… it's noses in the trough for those who can get to it, none moreso than with the PPE scandal!
My suspicion it that that’s barely the tip of the iceberg :cry:.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
reohn2
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by reohn2 »

Carlton green wrote: 21 Nov 2022, 9:42am
… it's noses in the trough for those who can get to it, none moreso than with the PPE scandal!
My suspicion it that that’s barely the tip of the iceberg :cry:.
There's always someone trying their utmost to make a buck out of another's misery,when they have the government helping them do it,it's society's loss and a dead cert gain in for those on the make! :evil:
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Philip Benstead
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Philip Benstead »

It started in Scotland?

BBC News - NHS chiefs in Scotland discuss having wealthy pay for treatment
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63659754
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