Witnessing the end of the NHS

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
Debs
Posts: 1335
Joined: 19 May 2017, 7:05pm
Location: Powys

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Debs »

BBC News - NHS chiefs in Scotland discuss having wealthy pay for treatment
It doesn't state what they define as being 'wealthy'.

I would think the overwhelming majority of multi-millionaire wealthy types already use private healthcare means, so this plan won't make a jot of difference in balancing an NHS care budget.
However the word wealthy sets a movable bar that can be lowered to include patients who merely own their own home or can cash-in their long hard earned pension to pay a whopping great bill that will leave them financially uncomfortable for the rest of their life.

It paves the way towards the normalisation of Private health care in the UK which comes with a cash register at every hospital foyer.
Paupers hospitals with a far lower standard of care may exist with a free and think yourself lucky service for the greater many who are financially skint.
Psamathe
Posts: 17616
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Psamathe »

Debs wrote: 21 Nov 2022, 12:29pm
BBC News - NHS chiefs in Scotland discuss having wealthy pay for treatment
It doesn't state what they define as being 'wealthy'.

I would think the overwhelming majority of multi-millionaire wealthy types already use private healthcare means, so this plan won't make a jot of difference in balancing an NHS care budget.
...
Private healthcare has capability limits (in my experience), sometimes fairly low limits. They'll happily offer profitable common procedures like knee replacement but the more complex and/or less common and you'll be back under the NHS.

e.g. in my own case I was self-funding consultant investigations, MRI privately but then next test "cannot be done under private care in the region" so I was transferred back to NHS and quite rightly the back of the NHS queue (i.e. private consultant wrote to my GP asking that I be referred to ENT at a hospital he specified which was then assessed according to NHS criteria).

So I suspect that for some charging for NHS could be different from just private treatment.

Ian
millimole
Posts: 908
Joined: 18 Feb 2007, 5:41pm
Location: Leicester

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by millimole »

Tangled Metal wrote:Does anyone know the cost to run the NHS now vs when founded? What about the number of possible treatments?
I doubt this could be quantified.
The UK was a very different place, and it was picking up a lot of the pieces of the war.

There was an assumption in 1948 that there was a backlog of untreated illnesses and disabled folk who, once dealt with by the new service would 'be cured' and the costs of the NHS would go down, or at least be stable once they were dealt with.
Expectations, new treatments, and new diseases put paid to that, plus, of course, if you make people better, they live longer and have the 'illnesses of old age'.
The earliest recognition of a problem with funding were the charges introduced for optical & dental services and prescription charges.

Arguably the new 1948 NHS was brilliantly organised at a national and regional level, run by very capable civil servants and administrators, but run really badly at the local levels by the fighting triumbarate of matron, doctor and administrator in every hospital. The reforms of 1974 were largely aimed at dealing with that by removing the HMCs. Unfortunately those reforms, however successful, gave government a taste for changing the way the NHS was run, and they've been meddling ever since.
Leicester; Riding my Hetchins since 1971; Day rides on my Dawes; Going to the shops on a Decathlon Hoprider
axel_knutt
Posts: 2869
Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 12:20pm

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by axel_knutt »

axel_knutt wrote: 20 Nov 2022, 12:31pm Anyone interested in the woes of the NHS could do worse than follow Steve Black, a data scientist specialising in healthcare who Tweets as @sib313.
A good example here: https://twitter.com/sib313/status/1594706655635476482
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
hjd10
Posts: 319
Joined: 25 Feb 2010, 9:43pm
Location: Originally from Lancashire but now in Lincolnshire

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by hjd10 »

Debs wrote: 19 Nov 2022, 1:42pm After 12 years of Tory administration deliberately underfunding the NHS in view of profits from privatisations, the more recent ruthless Brexit-Tory cabal is holding out yet another two years until its bitter end of being defeated in the next available General Election.
However, will it be too late by then, for a new Labour government, to save the NHS from 14 years of deliberate ongoing Tory privatisation creep?


The problem with the NHS is that it has always been broken. We all want a modern healthcare system that is free at the point of use but we don't want to pay for it... There are many other countries that have systems that are better and are run much more efficiently and I don't mean anything like the US system!
We can't even discuss our beloved NHS as we've placed it onto some pedestal which is out of reach for discussion.
I remember my parents chatting many years ago about the NHS and saying that if you could write a blank cheque and double the funding, the money would just disappear.
The system is already privatised with GP surgeries, I quite like the idea of small hubs that provide treatments away from large hospitals (cataract operations and minor surgeries). These hubs are often run as a contract, but don't clog up hospitals, (remember, you are more likely to die in hospital from something not related to what you went in for). We had a Professor who'd been invited to give a presentation on the NHS safety culture as I work in the Aviation industry. His presentation left me with the thoughts that the current setup can’t be changed as the whole system is a mega bureaucracy and not in a good way.
If we want the NHS as it is, we are doomed to paying higher taxes and an inefficient money monster that under performs.
How many people abuse the system?
Just look at any A&E on a Friday or Saturday evening, why do we accept people completely wasting resources turning up drunk?
Labour or Conservative, no one can fix it!
millimole
Posts: 908
Joined: 18 Feb 2007, 5:41pm
Location: Leicester

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by millimole »


hjd10 wrote:
Debs wrote: 19 Nov 2022, 1:42pm After 12 years of Tory administration deliberately underfunding the NHS in view of profits from privatisations, the more recent ruthless Brexit-Tory cabal is holding out yet another two years until its bitter end of being defeated in the next available General Election.
However, will it be too late by then, for a new Labour government, to save the NHS from 14 years of deliberate ongoing Tory privatisation creep?


The system is already privatised with GP surgeries, I quite like the idea of small hubs that provide treatments away from large hospitals (cataract operations and minor surgeries).
Most people forget, or don't know that nearly all GP surgeries are private businesses contracted to provide NHS services - this was part of the deal the BMA did with Labour in 1948

The hubs you describe have been intermittently tried in various places at various times - I remember several experiments during my 40 year stint in the NHS. They are great for patients, they are satisfying for staff, and they can save money.

So why don't they last? Mainly because of the resistance of 'old school' senior medical staff to working outside of major hospital centres, and them doing what is perceived as a 'production line' job. This underlines the power of medical staff against the rational needs of both patients and society.

Thankfully a lot of these attitudes are changing, and some of this is due to the increased number of consultants in the NHS, and the new ideas being brought in by overseas doctors.

In the early days of the NHS 'Health Centres' were built that incorporated swimming pools and libraries as well as all the services that you'd find in an Out Patient Clinic. I believe that one such centre was built in Woodberry Down in North London.
The idea being - healthy mind/healthy body. But that requires joined up thinking!
Leicester; Riding my Hetchins since 1971; Day rides on my Dawes; Going to the shops on a Decathlon Hoprider
hjd10
Posts: 319
Joined: 25 Feb 2010, 9:43pm
Location: Originally from Lancashire but now in Lincolnshire

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by hjd10 »

millimole wrote: 23 Nov 2022, 8:18am
hjd10 wrote:
Debs wrote: 19 Nov 2022, 1:42pm After 12 years of Tory administration deliberately underfunding the NHS in view of profits from privatisations, the more recent ruthless Brexit-Tory cabal is holding out yet another two years until its bitter end of being defeated in the next available General Election.
However, will it be too late by then, for a new Labour government, to save the NHS from 14 years of deliberate ongoing Tory privatisation creep?


The system is already privatised with GP surgeries, I quite like the idea of small hubs that provide treatments away from large hospitals (cataract operations and minor surgeries).
Most people forget, or don't know that nearly all GP surgeries are private businesses contracted to provide NHS services - this was part of the deal the BMA did with Labour in 1948

The hubs you describe have been intermittently tried in various places at various times - I remember several experiments during my 40 year stint in the NHS. They are great for patients, they are satisfying for staff, and they can save money.

So why don't they last? Mainly because of the resistance of 'old school' senior medical staff to working outside of major hospital centres, and them doing what is perceived as a 'production line' job. This underlines the power of medical staff against the rational needs of both patients and society.

Thankfully a lot of these attitudes are changing, and some of this is due to the increased number of consultants in the NHS, and the new ideas being brought in by overseas doctors.

In the early days of the NHS 'Health Centres' were built that incorporated swimming pools and libraries as well as all the services that you'd find in an Out Patient Clinic. I believe that one such centre was built in Woodberry Down in North London.
The idea being - healthy mind/healthy body. But that requires joined up thinking!
Smilles can we put you on charge of the setup. :D I always think about government organisations and how they operate and I'm reminded of my industry. The aviation industry is not run by pilots, Arlines are run by managers with expertise in their own areas.
Who can remember the Trouble shooter Sir John Harvey-Jones, we need more people like this in charge of large government organisations?
thirdcrank
Posts: 36764
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by thirdcrank »

hjd10 wrote: 23 Nov 2022, 10:12pm
millimole wrote: 23 Nov 2022, 8:18am
hjd10 wrote: The system is already privatised with GP surgeries, I quite like the idea of small hubs that provide treatments away from large hospitals (cataract operations and minor surgeries).
Most people forget, or don't know that nearly all GP surgeries are private businesses contracted to provide NHS services - this was part of the deal the BMA did with Labour in 1948

The hubs you describe have been intermittently tried in various places at various times - I remember several experiments during my 40 year stint in the NHS. They are great for patients, they are satisfying for staff, and they can save money.

So why don't they last? Mainly because of the resistance of 'old school' senior medical staff to working outside of major hospital centres, and them doing what is perceived as a 'production line' job. This underlines the power of medical staff against the rational needs of both patients and society.

Thankfully a lot of these attitudes are changing, and some of this is due to the increased number of consultants in the NHS, and the new ideas being brought in by overseas doctors.

In the early days of the NHS 'Health Centres' were built that incorporated swimming pools and libraries as well as all the services that you'd find in an Out Patient Clinic. I believe that one such centre was built in Woodberry Down in North London.
The idea being - healthy mind/healthy body. But that requires joined up thinking!
Smilles can we put you on charge of the setup. :D I always think about government organisations and how they operate and I'm reminded of my industry. The aviation industry is not run by pilots, Arlines are run by managers with expertise in their own areas.
Who can remember the Trouble shooter Sir John Harvey-Jones, we need more people like this in charge of large government organisations?
I can. [boast] He shook my hand in his role of Chancellor of Bradford University in December 1990[/boast]
User avatar
Cugel
Posts: 5430
Joined: 13 Nov 2017, 11:14am

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Cugel »

hjd10 wrote: 23 Nov 2022, 10:12pm
Who can remember the Trouble shooter Sir John Harvey-Jones, we need more people like this in charge of large government organisations?
I can remember him and his programmes on the tele about "improving" businesses. What he meant was, sacrificing all values except the bottom line to make more profit.

I recall the programme about Morgan cars, I think it was. Ole Harvey-Loans couldn't understand why they stuck with their traditional and costly-to-produce designs whilst also restricting sales to those they believed would appreciate their car for what it was. Such a business was "not successful" in his view because it could have made more money by making bog-standard cars and selling them to all and sundry on the basis of their badge rather than their qualities.

He wished image to triumph over substance in service of more profit - possibly the most damaging mental disease contributing to the devastating damages done by manufacturing businesses today. The result of this attitude is a constant stream of sub-standard but made-fashionable (for as short a time as it takes to sell loads) rubbish that floods then poisons the planet.

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
ambodach
Posts: 1023
Joined: 15 Mar 2011, 6:45pm

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by ambodach »

The story about NHS Scotland allegedly considering charging wealthy patients is denied and is just a fabrication to cause political trouble.
Anything from BBC should be regarded with suspicion.
User avatar
simonineaston
Posts: 7993
Joined: 9 May 2007, 1:06pm
Location: ...at a cricket ground

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by simonineaston »

Anything from BBC should be regarded with suspicion.
Oh-oh - sounds like a conspiracy... :wink:
they're coming - they're coming... !!
they're coming - they're coming... !!
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Debs
Posts: 1335
Joined: 19 May 2017, 7:05pm
Location: Powys

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Debs »

ambodach wrote: 24 Nov 2022, 5:46pm Anything from BBC should be regarded with suspicion.
Do you mean the Brexit Bullshiting Corporation? :wink:
slowster
Moderator
Posts: 4612
Joined: 7 Jul 2017, 10:37am

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by slowster »

ambodach wrote: 24 Nov 2022, 5:46pm The story about NHS Scotland allegedly considering charging wealthy patients is denied and is just a fabrication to cause political trouble.
Please provide some evidence for that, i.e. a) that the substance of the BBC report is 'denied' and b) that it is a fabrication.
irc
Posts: 5189
Joined: 3 Dec 2008, 2:22pm
Location: glasgow

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by irc »

ambodach wrote: 24 Nov 2022, 5:46pm The story about NHS Scotland allegedly considering charging wealthy patients is denied and is just a fabrication to cause political trouble.
Anything from BBC should be regarded with suspicion.
Nobody has denied it. The SNP are saying it isn't SNP policy and never will be. Nobody is denying NHS bosses were discussing it.

https://twitter.com/HumzaYousaf/status/ ... W1NFWvRtvw
Debs
Posts: 1335
Joined: 19 May 2017, 7:05pm
Location: Powys

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Debs »

no one is denying the hedge fund manager millionaire brexiter bloke, who since has become prime sinister, went to California to talk with healthcare firms...

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... r-25739649
Post Reply