Witnessing the end of the NHS

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
Post Reply
reohn2
Posts: 45143
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by reohn2 »

Stradageek
That sounds just about right to me.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Stradageek
Posts: 1651
Joined: 17 Jan 2011, 1:07pm

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Stradageek »

Just looking at the latest 'scandal' concerning agency rates, am I being naive in asking why we think there's a shortage of doctors and nurses if they can be found as long as we pay 'agency rates'.

Let's gradually bring in an agency rate cap reaching -10% of permanent staff rates after a year or so - that should sort it.

I favour the same solution for house rents. Gradually reduce the maximum chargeable private rent to a maximum of parity with council rents - that should bring house prices down a bit as landlords rapidly ditch their 'investments'.

Let's call it 'controlled capitalism'.

Too naive?
millimole
Posts: 908
Joined: 18 Feb 2007, 5:41pm
Location: Leicester

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by millimole »


Stradageek wrote:Just looking at the latest 'scandal' concerning agency rates, am I being naive in asking why we think there's a shortage of doctors and nurses if they can be found as long as we pay 'agency rates'.
Two examples - but there will be many more:
1) Some folk are happy to work all the hours that they can to the detriment of their health and family life. They may not be able to get extra hours through their own employer (generally bank shifts for nurses) but will be able to find an agency to employ them - often a way from their home base.
2) I was recently involved in a 'medical repatriation' of an ill family member. We were accompanied by a doctor. He was between jobs - having left his A&E job and waiting to start as a GP. He was working for the agency between times doing repatriation work and short stints on cruise ships (he seemed to dislike the work, but admitted it was extremely lucrative)
Leicester; Riding my Hetchins since 1971; Day rides on my Dawes; Going to the shops on a Decathlon Hoprider
Psamathe
Posts: 17616
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Psamathe »

Jdsk wrote: 7 Dec 2022, 11:07pm
bikes4two wrote: 7 Dec 2022, 10:50pm
  • I couldn't bear to read all of this thread (too depressing) so apologies if this aspect of the topic has been broached already, but it seems to me that a lot of the NHS problems would be eased if there weren't so many 'unwell' people.
  • Has there ever been an analysis of why so many are needing the NHS's services and how many of the causes of ill health could have been mitigated by better education and personal self control (I'me thinking drug/alchohol abuse and obesity to name but a few)
.
Yes, we know a vast amount about the causes of disease and how much is avoidable.

Some of that is avoidable through personal decisions and some of it through factors beyond the control of individuals.
...
I find it disappointing that the Government seems to avoid doing much to improve health through non-medical means, things like exercise, clean air, encouraging healthier eating (even through taxation), etc. So often they seem to not even try to achieve the minimum.

Ian
reohn2
Posts: 45143
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by reohn2 »

Psamathe wrote: 12 Dec 2022, 11:07am
Jdsk wrote: 7 Dec 2022, 11:07pm
bikes4two wrote: 7 Dec 2022, 10:50pm
  • I couldn't bear to read all of this thread (too depressing) so apologies if this aspect of the topic has been broached already, but it seems to me that a lot of the NHS problems would be eased if there weren't so many 'unwell' people.
  • Has there ever been an analysis of why so many are needing the NHS's services and how many of the causes of ill health could have been mitigated by better education and personal self control (I'me thinking drug/alchohol abuse and obesity to name but a few)
.
Yes, we know a vast amount about the causes of disease and how much is avoidable.

Some of that is avoidable through personal decisions and some of it through factors beyond the control of individuals.
...
I find it disappointing that the Government seems to avoid doing much to improve health through non-medical means, things like exercise, clean air, encouraging healthier eating (even through taxation), etc. So often they seem to not even try to achieve the minimum.

Ian
My bold
Dentistry and a lack of old age care being classic examples.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Jdsk
Posts: 24478
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Jdsk »

Psamathe wrote: 12 Dec 2022, 11:07am
Jdsk wrote: 7 Dec 2022, 11:07pm
bikes4two wrote: 7 Dec 2022, 10:50pm
  • I couldn't bear to read all of this thread (too depressing) so apologies if this aspect of the topic has been broached already, but it seems to me that a lot of the NHS problems would be eased if there weren't so many 'unwell' people.
  • Has there ever been an analysis of why so many are needing the NHS's services and how many of the causes of ill health could have been mitigated by better education and personal self control (I'me thinking drug/alchohol abuse and obesity to name but a few)
.
Yes, we know a vast amount about the causes of disease and how much is avoidable.

Some of that is avoidable through personal decisions and some of it through factors beyond the control of individuals.
...
I find it disappointing that the Government seems to avoid doing much to improve health through non-medical means, things like exercise, clean air, encouraging healthier eating (even through taxation), etc. So often they seem to not even try to achieve the minimum.
Yes.

The evidence base for many of these effects is now pretty solid, and has never been easier to find. But nutrition is difficult because the trials are very difficult.

That's a good set to start with. Decreased smoking is now a success story in many countries. Stress (including stress related to status) and alcohol consumption are pretty high up the list of major causes of harm.

But we're still nowhere near mandatory assessments of the effects on health of governmental decisions. That would make an enormous difference.

Jonathan
User avatar
simonineaston
Posts: 7993
Joined: 9 May 2007, 1:06pm
Location: ...at a cricket ground

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by simonineaston »

Certain elements of current political parties would be very against any measures that form a source of neutral and scientific data, for the simple reason that many of the individuals concerned are in bed with many of the industries that do so much harm... the MP for Suffolk Coastal being one such example.
So, we see that lots of Henry Dimbleby's hard work has been comprehensively overlooked... it's hard to reach any other conclusion that these people are far more focused on profit - they simply don't care about the nation's health, other than as a cash cow to fuel their investments.
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Debs
Posts: 1335
Joined: 19 May 2017, 7:05pm
Location: Powys

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Debs »

Stradageek wrote: 12 Dec 2022, 8:57am Just looking at the latest 'scandal' concerning agency rates, am I being naive in asking why we think there's a shortage of doctors and nurses if they can be found as long as we pay 'agency rates'.

Let's gradually bring in an agency rate cap reaching -10% of permanent staff rates after a year or so - that should sort it.

I favour the same solution for house rents. Gradually reduce the maximum chargeable private rent to a maximum of parity with council rents - that should bring house prices down a bit as landlords rapidly ditch their 'investments'.

Let's call it 'controlled capitalism'.

Too naive?
I'd say realistic rather than naive, although the word is regulation, and this incumbent broken flush Tory Cabal of thieves, liars, and greedy opportunists don't believe in any form of regulation on their turbo-charged greed is good brand of capitalism. It's obvious to people who disregard the usual forms of propaganda news media, that this Tory administration has an ingrained hatred of State welfare functionaries.. hence the ongoing and deliberate run down to rack and ruin of the NHS, and they do not intend to sell it off, they intend to give it away.
briansnail
Posts: 805
Joined: 1 Sep 2019, 3:07pm

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by briansnail »

USA probably has the most expensive and in no way delivers as well as the UK NHS.
Just curious does anyone know about Russia - or is good health care just for the rich? Bet Putin goes private.
********************************************************************
I ride Brompton and a 100% British Vintage
Debs
Posts: 1335
Joined: 19 May 2017, 7:05pm
Location: Powys

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Debs »

User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 56349
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Mick F »

Went into the (ill)Health Centre this morning for a blood test.
I arrived five minutes before my appointed time, signed in, and sat in the waiting room.
I was still there fifteen minutes AFTER my appointed time and still not called through. I was just putting my coat and hat back on to walk away, when the nurse called me in.

First thing she said, was that she apologised for making me wait as she had been called away on an emergency.
Fine. No issues with that as their time is precious.

However, the first thing I said to her, was that there's a Suggestion Box in the waiting room but no slips of paper to write a suggestion on.
I added that if there was, I would suggest that as patients arrive and check in, they should be told that there's a delay.

She apologised again, and I laboured the point that the appointment is for TWO people - the medic and the patient - and that some of us object strongly to being kept waiting without any explanation of why. How would they cope with the patient arriving fifteen minutes late irrespective of the excuse?

Any road up, the blood test went well, and we parted amicably and I thanked her for being wonderful and listening to my rants. :D
Mick F. Cornwall
User avatar
Cugel
Posts: 5430
Joined: 13 Nov 2017, 11:14am

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Cugel »

Mick F wrote: 12 Dec 2022, 4:42pm Went into the (ill)Health Centre this morning for a blood test.
I arrived five minutes before my appointed time, signed in, and sat in the waiting room.
I was still there fifteen minutes AFTER my appointed time and still not called through. I was just putting my coat and hat back on to walk away, when the nurse called me in.

First thing she said, was that she apologised for making me wait as she had been called away on an emergency.
Fine. No issues with that as their time is precious.

However, the first thing I said to her, was that there's a Suggestion Box in the waiting room but no slips of paper to write a suggestion on.
I added that if there was, I would suggest that as patients arrive and check in, they should be told that there's a delay.

She apologised again, and I laboured the point that the appointment is for TWO people - the medic and the patient - and that some of us object strongly to being kept waiting without any explanation of why. How would they cope with the patient arriving fifteen minutes late irrespective of the excuse?

Any road up, the blood test went well, and we parted amicably and I thanked her for being wonderful and listening to my rants. :D
Why berate the person who is giving your the actual help you need rather than the inadequate designers and administrators of the service who are undermining both of you? I feel it's a shameful thing to make the already difficult lives of these coalface service providers even more stressful just because they're convenient to the gripes of the one being serviced, especially on the small matter of a delayed appointment time.

DIrect you complaints to someone who can do something about them. Perhaps you could join your complaint to the nurse's complaint concerning not just the badly designed service but the inadequate pay and conditions for those who actually have to provide it? Not that the administrators & managers, from Health Minister to the probably overpaid and underqualified local administrator, will care or do anything about it, mind.

Biting the hand that mends you. Even our collie knows better than to chomp on the vet, despite his angsts at a visit.

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
thirdcrank
Posts: 36764
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by thirdcrank »

Following on from Cugel's comment, I checked and I see that Gunnislake Health Centre www has the facility to post online reviews

Only one in 2022 awarding 5 stars
Very prompt call back and an appointment given for later in the morning. Really well organised considering it was so busy. There was no indication that they were so busy and I felt that I was receiving the GP's full attention with a very thorough consultation. We're so lucky to have such an excellent practice in the village with such friendly, professional and dedicated staff. Thank you to all the staff, both admin and medical, who made today's visit such a positive experience.
https://www.nhs.uk/services/gp-surgery/ ... nd-reviews
millimole
Posts: 908
Joined: 18 Feb 2007, 5:41pm
Location: Leicester

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by millimole »


Cugel wrote: DIrect you complaints to someone who can do something about them. Perhaps you could join your complaint to the nurse's complaint concerning not just the badly designed service but the inadequate pay and conditions for those who actually have to provide it? Not that the administrators & managers, from Health Minister to the probably overpaid and underqualified local administrator, will care or do anything about it, mind.
Cugel
You are mainly correct in the thrust of your argument.

One of my last jobs in the NHS was to manage patients and relatives' complaints for 'my' part of the service (mainly support services, including, yes, phlebotomy).

In those halcyon days complaints were treated like gold dust - serious opportunities to improve and learn. And, yes, improvements were made as a result of complaints and feedback - some of the improvements I was extremely proud of.
Sadly as the axe has fallen on 'managers' in the NHS the complaints process has been pared back to a system of 'acknowledge and file' - because there's no one with the time or influence to learn from issues and improve the service standards.

Complain about the number of managers but in the end if they aren't there, then the clinical staff will be doing non-clinical work instead of treating patients.
Leicester; Riding my Hetchins since 1971; Day rides on my Dawes; Going to the shops on a Decathlon Hoprider
User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 56349
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Mick F »

I will be going into the (ill)Health Centre tomorrow or Wednesday to hand our prescriptions in. I also need to book another appointment. I will be speaking to them about the suggestions box and the lack of feedback regarding delays .............. again .............. and I've said it many times over the years.

The nurse today was brilliant, and I told her so. It is the organisation that is wrong, not her.
Mick F. Cornwall
Post Reply