pwa wrote: ↑20 Nov 2022, 5:08amAnd secondly, the closer to the curb you cycle, the closer the passing traffic will be to you. I know that doesn't sound right, but it works out that way. If a passing driver finds you a bit further out into the road they see you as an obstacle requiring some action on their part, and they tend then to give the matter a bit of thought and work out a way of passing properly.
Which seems to say the opposite (figure 2). I'm not a statistician, so please tell me if I'm misinterpreted that study. And of course it's only one study, but it's the only one I'm aware of.
It seems to suggest that the way to have the lowest number of close passes is to ride very close to the road edge, without a helmet.
Most of the roads I cycle on, wherever you position yourself on the road a driver will need to at least partially cross the white line to pass you which means no oncoming traffic. Which means if you endure the debris, drains and potholes they'll still need no oncoming traffic and will only bother to slightly use the oncoming lane - so you might as well get the better clearer road surface as they'll still need a clear oncoming lane to pass and just have to take a bit more of the already clear oncoming lane.
For more sustained stretches I'll usually use 'secondary' which i largely tend to treat as roughly where the left wheel of most motor vehicles traverses, this has the added bonus of often being a slightly smoother surface (though obviously a failing road surface with rutting might need alternative approaches).
At any sort of junction, or any multi-lane urban environment I'll be in the middle of whatever lane I would be in if I were driving which makes my intentions clear and obvious to other drivers.
Cycling close to the kerb is ill-advised not just because it makes you less visible and invites squeeze through passes but also because that's where all the detritus ends up, including the sharp stuff that attracts the puncture fairy. Obviously some people take the marathon+ approach to this sort of thing but personally I like value ride quality, grip and low rolling resistance even on my pub bike (if anything particularly on that bike because that's the one I ride in 'normal' clothes and therefore getting sweaty is typically the limiting factor)
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
I normally cycle in the nearside car wheel track, which approximates to a meter from the edge on a straight road, but can vary on bends or near junctions.
a) you are far enough out that a car that doesn't move will hit you, which means that the driver autopilot notices you and overtakes properly.
b) you aren't antagonising the drivers unneccessarily
c) car tyres have swept away almost all of the puncture-causing debris
I'll move out where I consider it useful, such as when approaching a traffic island/pedestrian refuge, and I'll also move in to the edge if a following car has already slowed down to more or less my speed.
pwa wrote: ↑20 Nov 2022, 5:08amAnd secondly, the closer to the curb you cycle, the closer the passing traffic will be to you. I know that doesn't sound right, but it works out that way. If a passing driver finds you a bit further out into the road they see you as an obstacle requiring some action on their part, and they tend then to give the matter a bit of thought and work out a way of passing properly.
Which seems to say the opposite (figure 2). I'm not a statistician, so please tell me if I'm misinterpreted that study. And of course it's only one study, but it's the only one I'm aware of.
It seems to suggest that the way to have the lowest number of close passes is to ride very close to the road edge, without a helmet.
Which was explained by the people behind the study as putting the suspicion in the mind of the passing driver that the cyclist was incompetent and might wobble, so better give them more room. You also have to look, from behind, like a woman to get the maximum effect, apparently, because drivers subconsciously associate female with needing extra care! Yes, you could ride in the gutter to pull off this deception, but it's an awful lot of trouble to go to. In more normal cycling It has been my experience, during many rides to work and back, that being a bit further out convinces drivers to treat a pass as something needing thought and timing, resulting in a higher percentage of decent passes. It is especially important not to tuck into the gutter in the left hand bends of twisty lanes, where doing so would mean being seen later by following traffic.
I tend to ride too close to the kerb on busy single carriage way roads - those few who give any thought to 1.5m tend to think it means from the KERB, not the cyclist!
djnotts wrote: ↑21 Nov 2022, 8:56am
I tend to ride too close to the kerb on busy single carriage way roads - those few who give any thought to 1.5m tend to think it means from the KERB, not the cyclist!
And you find that you are given more elbow room if you do that? I found that the further I moved out, the more room I was given. But on the other hand, I avoid roads that are both narrow and very busy at the same time.
IME if a driver sees a gap the width of a car they will drive through it, implicitly assuming that the cyclist is travelling at zero mph and will not wobble.
The only way to counter this tendency is to present a gap that is less than a car's width.
And remember that the people who objected to the linked road safety advert https://www.bikeradar.com/news/asa-u-tu ... safety-ad/ cited (amongst other objections) that the cyclist position meant that the driver had to cross the centre white line to overtake the bike!!!!!
No wonder a cyclist hugging the kerb will get squeezed - or worse
andrew_s wrote: ↑20 Nov 2022, 11:39pm
I normally cycle in the nearside car wheel track, which approximates to a meter from the edge on a straight road, but can vary on bends or near junctions.
a) you are far enough out that a car that doesn't move will hit you, which means that the driver autopilot notices you and overtakes properly.
b) you aren't antagonising the drivers unneccessarily
c) car tyres have swept away almost all of the puncture-causing debris
I'll move out where I consider it useful, such as when approaching a traffic island/pedestrian refuge, and I'll also move in to the edge if a following car has already slowed down to more or less my speed.
andrew_s wrote: ↑20 Nov 2022, 11:39pm
I normally cycle in the nearside car wheel track, which approximates to a meter from the edge on a straight road, but can vary on bends or near junctions.
a) you are far enough out that a car that doesn't move will hit you, which means that the driver autopilot notices you and overtakes properly.
b) you aren't antagonising the drivers unneccessarily
c) car tyres have swept away almost all of the puncture-causing debris
I'll move out where I consider it useful, such as when approaching a traffic island/pedestrian refuge, and I'll also move in to the edge if a following car has already slowed down to more or less my speed.
+1
Yes, that's about it for me too. Moving into the gutter area is a temporary measure to be done for a few seconds to let past a driver who has slowed right down and has been showing some patience, and who you think best to get in front of you now, while conditions are right. It isn't an area to dwell in for long.
Last edited by pwa on 22 Nov 2022, 9:20am, edited 1 time in total.
Which seems to say the opposite (figure 2). I'm not a statistician, so please tell me if I'm misinterpreted that study. And of course it's only one study, but it's the only one I'm aware of.
It seems to suggest that the way to have the lowest number of close passes is to ride very close to the road edge, without a helmet.
The analysed results suggest that the average passing distance is slightly greater when the cyclist is closer to the kerb. However, the passing distance also varies more (that is the range is greater) when the cyclist is closer to the kerb. So looking at the data, all of the closest passes occurred when the cyclist was closer to the kerb.
All of the passes that left room of 0.5 metres or less, occurred when the cyclist was within 0.75 metres of the kerb.
Personally, I'd take slightly less average distance if it reduced the number of *very* close passes. Although Walker's experiment (which the linked one re-analyses) was one person in one part of the UK, the experience mirrors mine elsewhere.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.” ― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Many of the lanes round here are not much wider than a single track road, so on the uphills, I tend to find a wider bit to pull over to let the following traffic get past.
One thing I've noticed over the eons, is that if a car comes towards me, they'll slow and get past.
Same road, but the car is behind me, and they won't overtake!
What's the difference? Same road, same width.
Mick F wrote: ↑22 Nov 2022, 10:06am
Many of the lanes round here are not much wider than a single track road, so on the uphills, I tend to find a wider bit to pull over to let the following traffic get past.
One thing I've noticed over the eons, is that if a car comes towards me, they'll slow and get past.
Same road, but the car is behind me, and they won't overtake! What's the difference? Same road, same width.
A couple of things. Firstly approaching head on, the driver knows you can see them and what they are trying to do, so confidence in there being no misunderstanding is greater. And secondly, with both of you going the same way, both slowly, the time it takes to pass is greater and the length of good road width required is also greater, so a driver is more likely to doubt that the wide bit ahead goes on long enough for them to complete the pass safely. Whereas if you are going in the opposite direction, you pass in a second or two.
Mick F wrote: ↑22 Nov 2022, 10:06am
Many of the lanes round here are not much wider than a single track road, so on the uphills, I tend to find a wider bit to pull over to let the following traffic get past.
One thing I've noticed over the eons, is that if a car comes towards me, they'll slow and get past.
Same road, but the car is behind me, and they won't overtake! What's the difference? Same road, same width.
A couple of things. Firstly approaching head on, the driver knows you can see them and what they are trying to do, so confidence in there being no misunderstanding is greater. And secondly, with both of you going the same way, both slowly, the time it takes to pass is greater and the length of good road width required is also greater, so a driver is more likely to doubt that the wide bit ahead goes on long enough for them to complete the pass safely. Whereas if you are going in the opposite direction, you pass in a second or two.
In addition, if neither the cyclist nor the oncoming motorist will pass each other unless there's a large gap atween the two, both will have to stop and stay there forever when such a gap is not available.
Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
