Covid Choice

[horizon]

DingDong: I've picked out a couple of points from your post - sorry if it's a bit forensic! It isn't to take issue with you but just to look at some ideas raised by what you wrote:

I am starting to feel the effects of it out cycling already. For the past 4 weeks I've had a very bad catarrh problem, producing a lot of it, with no other symptoms present, and no cause detectable by my GP.

It's a good problem to have IMV (I repeat, IMV). That's the body getting rid of stuff it doesn't want and given what you went through, your body probably has quite a lot of that. I'm surprised the doctor didn't reassure you on that.

To be honest, the whole scenario is becoming very scary. And I'm someone who was previously untroubled by any health issues, other than the odd cold/flu.
Without the vaccine, I would have developed the pneumonia stage (I was a previous smoker) and I would not have survived it. I know my own body, and I have always fared badly with flu/cold infections.

It sounds like there is plenty to trouble you. Personally I wouldn't overdo the cycling just yet - it seems to me that the body is working hard to sort itself out.

[Jdsk]

I am starting to feel the effects of it out cycling already. For the past 4 weeks I've had a very bad catarrh problem, producing a lot of it, with no other symptoms present, and no cause detectable by my GP.

It's a good problem to have IMV (I repeat, IMV). That's the body getting rid of stuff it doesn't want and given what you went through, your body probably has quite a lot of that. I'm surprised the doctor didn't reassure you on that.

I'm not. Is there any evidence that it's the case?

Thanks

Jonathan

[horizon]

I would have thought the doctor would have said (given he said there were no other worrying factors), that the phlegm was just that - phlegm. What he appears to have said is that since there is no obvious cause, the phlegm must be a symptom of something else more sinister (unless I have misunderstood Dingdong's point) but he doesn't know what. I would say though that the phlegm is indeed a consequence of something more sinister but which has already happened and which both doctor and patient know about. I'm not suggesting BTW that the phlegm might not be a symptom of something far worse, it's the doctor who said he couldn't find anything else and I'm going by that.

[Jdsk]

I was questioning the idea that production of catarrh was beneficial, as in "the body getting rid of stuff it doesn't want".

Jonathan

[Biospace]

I was questioning the idea that production of catarrh was beneficial, as in "the body getting rid of stuff it doesn't want".

Jonathan

If the body is trying to rid itself of what is not beneficial and even potentially harmful, isn't this one of its mechanisms for doing so?

[Jdsk]

I was questioning the idea that production of catarrh was beneficial, as in "the body getting rid of stuff it doesn't want".

If the body is trying to rid itself of what is not beneficial and even potentially harmful, isn't this one of its mechanisms for doing so?

Not all bodily actions are *beneficial. What's the evidence for this one being?

Thanks

Jonathan

* For example there will be many people here who have benefited from interventions that decrease inflammation.

[Biospace]

Not all bodily actions are *beneficial. What's the evidence for this one being?

Thanks

Jonathan

* For example there will be many people here who have benefited from interventions that decrease inflammation.

If it is helping the body clean up toxins and whatever else it prefers to eject, I would suggest that it is very helpful indeed.

If such a waste-clearing mechanism continues in excess for more than a few days, there is clearly a problem which needs considering further.

[Jdsk]

If it is helping the body clean up toxins and whatever else it prefers to eject, I would suggest that it is very helpful indeed.
...

Bodies don't make choices like that.

That "If it is helping..." is the same as me asking for the evidence that it's beneficial...

Jonathan

[Biospace]

If it is helping the body clean up toxins and whatever else it prefers to eject, I would suggest that it is very helpful indeed.
...

Bodies don't make choices like that.

That "If it is helping..." is the same as me asking for the evidence that it's beneficial...

Jonathan

In your understanding what is it that decides to cough or produce extra mucus in order to expel, for example, soot from the lungs?

[Jdsk]

I don't find "decides" to be a useful description. What happens is nothing like human cognition.

The body has an available set of reactions. They've been selected by evolution. They're constrained by physics, chemistry etc.

Those reactions are fired off by specific stimuli.

But even if "decides" is avoided there's no reason to think that a specific reaction in a specific setting is beneficial to the individual.

Reducing inflammation is a good example with which many of us are familiar. That's true both in the short term for a single musculoskeletal injury, for asthma, and for autoimmune disease for which there'll be a fair number of sufferers who'll read this here. It's often a good idea to switch off the body's reaction. If all reactions were beneficial that wouldn't the case.

Jonathan

[Biospace]

I don't find "decides" to be a useful description. What happens is nothing like human cognition.

The body has an available set of reactions. They've been selected by evolution. They're constrained by physics, chemistry etc.

Those reactions are fired off by specific stimuli.

But even if "decides" is avoided there's no reason to think that a specific reaction in a specific setting is beneficial to the individual.

Reducing inflammation is a good example with which many of us are familiar. That's true both in the short term for a single musculoskeletal injury, for asthma, and for autoimmune disease for which there'll be a fair number of sufferers who'll read this here. It's often a good idea to switch off the body's reaction. If all reactions were beneficial that wouldn't the case.

Jonathan

Whatever word one uses to describe a body's reaction to something it recognises as a toxin or foreign body, it is clear that a series of processes happens to set about excreting it. I appreciate 'decide' isn't sufficiently scientific sounding for many.

Western medicine is wonderful at saving lives and sorting out acute problems, but the long term "switching off" of its ability to deal with what it sees as a problem, rather than trying to work out what is causing said problem seems an approach which begs as many questions as problems it appears to solve.

Despite huge efforts it struggles with diseases such as asthma, rheumatism and arthritis and in Western society such chronic disease is increasing significantly. Cancer is of huge concern to many, especially when there is such an increase in younger people.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/ ... t-cancers/

[Jdsk]

I don't find "decides" to be a useful description. What happens is nothing like human cognition.

The body has an available set of reactions. They've been selected by evolution. They're constrained by physics, chemistry etc.

Those reactions are fired off by specific stimuli.

But even if "decides" is avoided there's no reason to think that a specific reaction in a specific setting is beneficial to the individual.

Reducing inflammation is a good example with which many of us are familiar. That's true both in the short term for a single musculoskeletal injury, for asthma, and for autoimmune disease for which there'll be a fair number of sufferers who'll read this here. It's often a good idea to switch off the body's reaction. If all reactions were beneficial that wouldn't the case.

Whatever word one uses to describe a body's reaction to something it recognises as a toxin or foreign body, it is clear that a series of processes happens to set about excreting it. I realise 'decide' isn't sufficiently scientific sounding for many, but a body's reaction is a form of decision.
...

The question here is whether all reactions are beneficial. They aren't.

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

...
Western medicine is wonderful at saving lives and sorting out acute problems, but the long term "switching off" of its ability to deal with what it sees as a problem, rather than trying to work out what is causing said problem seems an approach which begs as many questions as problems it appears to solve.
...

If you think that Western medical science isn't dominated by attempts to find causation then I can only suggest studying it.

Western medical practice is a different matter. The greatest development of the last half century has been the demand to find out the effects of treatments, both good and bad. This is a dramatic change from dogmatic ideas such as all reactions being necessarily beneficial.

Jonathan

[Biospace]

...
Western medicine is wonderful at saving lives and sorting out acute problems, but the long term "switching off" of its ability to deal with what it sees as a problem, rather than trying to work out what is causing said problem seems an approach which begs as many questions as problems it appears to solve.
...

If you think that Western medical science isn't dominated by attempts to find causation then I can only suggest studying it.

Western medical practice is a different matter. The greatest development of the last half century has been the demand to find out the effects of treatments, both good and bad. This is a dramatic change from dogmatic ideas such as all reactions being necessarily beneficial.

Jonathan

I would expect chronic disease to be waning if medicine as practiced was really effective.

This is not a criticism of individuals or a suggestion that people aren't trying their best, just a straight forward observation.

[mjr]

Just had my second dose of COVID, pretty much equivalent to a very bad cold lasting a week. Each of my three vaccinations left me totally pole-axed for 2-3 days. Now that the latest COVID variants are mild-ish I'm not sure which I'd recommend

Ah, but are they mild-ish or is it because the vaccinations built up your immune response?

I think I sailed through the vaccinations with minor problems but the second bout of COVID flattened me for over a week.